The Lakers Will Destroy This Young Team Because They Have to

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SPQR
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Man,

Reading so many depressing articles lately, all saying the Lakers will have a super team of Lebron, George and Leonard. And those articles say we will trade Kuzma and Ingram, at the least to get Leonard. And of course that would also mean Randle leaving. So that leaves us Ball and Hart, maybe, from our young core.

And of course this is the veteran team both Magic and Lebron would want. Magic because it's his super team and Lebron because he doesn't want to fool around with young players. All in the hope they can beat the Warriors in the West then presumably Boston in the finals. Do you know how good they will have to be that first year to do that?

And in trying to do this our future with the kids is gone forever.

All these articles say Magic has to do this, that the time for patience is over.

What sophistry. What crap. The time for a little more patience is right now. The worst is behind us, the light shining ahead. After years of misery why throw away all the young talent for a quick fix shot to beat a monster dynasty? Just a couple years more patience for the kids to grow and the Warriors to age and wear out. The Lakers should make the playoffs this year and they should be exciting. Will it be that hard to watch and enjoy them?

The most sickening of these "Magic has to" articles was written by the so called Dean of the LA Times Lakers writers Bill Plaske. For the last six years as Plaske watched his scotch drinking buddy Kupchak make one horrific move after another he didn't write a word about it. He supported him. Now that friend Mitch is gone he suddenly writes that Magic has to get Lebron and George and trade Ingram and Kuzma for Leonard. Why all the concern now Plaske, when you watched the team burn and never said a word? Could it Plaske just thinks it will be much more fun for him to cover a super team headed by Lebron than a young, growing one?

One thing I learned long ago, when a tendentious self serving snake like Plaske recommends you do something, tells you you have to, it's in your best interest to do the opposite.

The Lakers are on the cusp of something really good. A true home grown team with stars we can watch grow all the way to the top. All they need to do now is let it happen and plug up a few holes with all that cap money. How could a team be more enjoyable to watch than that? What better team to invest your emotions and heart on?

But instead, we will throw it all away and be saddled with a mercenary team of stars to satisfy the ego and hubris of men who want praise and glory for themselves. We will be like an army of Hessians bought and shipped in to win a title for Earv, Pelinka, Jeanie and the likes of Plaske. Can't wait to root for them.

What a damn shame to have gone through all those hard times just to come to the fate that is surely coming to us when we were so close to something so much more real, fun and long term.


kkennon1
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Have no problem trading for KL, depending on what the price is !!

If we lose BI or Kuz so be it ,but pass on trade if it means both.


SPQR
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Tell Magic that.


JJCali
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I wish Magic's punk a** would read this and what most of us write. We don't want this quick fix BS! I would strongly consider trading for KL who is still 26 years old till the end of this month. But I wouldn't even sign James or George. We are good. Keep moving.


gemfow
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I like Kawhi as a player but he comes with a pretty nice injury history and that should give most fans some concern. Kawhi has about four seasons where he has played around 65 games on average, he has a couple of low 70’s seasons and last season he played nine games

We don’t even know if Ingram will be as good or maybe even better than Leonard. However, we are quick to trade him off for Kawhi who seems to be somewhat injury prone. What a sad state we are in when we are so thirsty for big names that we are willing to jettison a young core to do it


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
I like Kawhi as a player but he comes with a pretty nice injury history and that should give most fans some concern. Kawhi has about four seasons where he has played around 65 games on average, he has a couple of low 70’s seasons and last season he played nine games

We don’t even know if Ingram will be as good or maybe even better than Leonard. However, we are quick to trade him off for Kawhi who seems to be somewhat injury prone. What a sad state we are in when we are so thirsty for big names that we are willing to jettison a young core to do it

Nah dude. I tend to agree with you. But This would have nothing to do with "big names" Kawhi is just that good! And he plays within the system. Perfect team Player, doesn't play ISO ball or need to control the ball. He's just goes out, is the best defender in the league and happens to be very good on offense too.


Tempy
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gemfow wrote:
I like Kawhi as a player but he comes with a pretty nice injury history and that should give most fans some concern. Kawhi has about four seasons where he has played around 65 games on average, he has a couple of low 70’s seasons and last season he played nine games

We don’t even know if Ingram will be as good or maybe even better than Leonard. However, we are quick to trade him off for Kawhi who seems to be somewhat injury prone. What a sad state we are in when we are so thirsty for big names that we are willing to jettison a young core to do it

That was the plan from the get go though. Bunches of people defended the Russell trade to free up cap space. It was obvious they were going to chase names. Now people want to get pissed about it?


kkennon1
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Tempy wrote:
That was the plan from the get go though. Bunches of people defended the Russell trade to free up cap space. It was obvious they were going to chase names. Now people want to get pissed about it?

Magic pretty much has already said it, when he stated that no player is untouchable!!! Team could look very different come next season.


VS
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I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think Leonard is happening. Boston can easily trump our offer. I also wouldn’t be surprised if San Antonio convinced him to stay.

James and George may very well come, and obviously that means Randle is gone, but Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram would stay. All them of them are complementary to LeBron in their own way.

Also, it’s worth mentioning that Leonard is 26 and Kuzma is 22, and the chance that Kuzma ever becomes as good as Leonard is probably less than 1%. So it’s not exactly like this is the Nets trading all those draft picks for a washed up KG and Pierce.


SPQR
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VS,

So nice to hear from you. Glad you're still around.

The thing is there is no way the Spurs trade Leonard for Kuzma. It's not enough. If the Lakers are determined to get Leonard, and I'm sure Lebron would want him, it's going to be Kuzma and Ingram. And that's where I start to have a big problem.

I have also read that Leonard wants to come to LA. I have to suspect that Lebron, George and Leonard have discussed this. And I'm sure when Magic talks to James the topic of bringing in George and Leonard to make the King happy will be brought up.

Lebron is not interested in playing with these inchoate young guys. He will want veterans here if he decides to come.

At this stage of his career he just wants to win titles. He's not interested in watching young players go through their growing pains.

Ironically, the only young player on our team I think he may have no problem having there is Randle, because he had an on court view when Julius pounded Cleveland last year. Plus I'm sure he is very aware of what Randle did all year.


VS
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Thanks Randy, good talking with you again too.

I understand the concern over trading both Kuzma and Ingram. I like both guys, and it would be painful to give them up, but I still think that my original point stands. Kuzma nor Ingram are ever very likely to be as good as Leonard. I would still have to bet that the next ten years of Kawhi’s career will be better than the next ten of Ingram’s. It’d be a good deal for both sides.

Ultimately, if there’s an opportunity to acquire LeBron James and Paul George and the “tax” is trading BI & KK for Leonard, then I think that’s reasonable. It puts us in an incredible position for the next 3 years, and a pretty solid position for the next 7-8 years based on George and Leonard’s age.

Throughout league history, teams have had to cash in nice young pieces to acquire big names to win titles. There are some instances where pure organic team building has lead to titles, but that requires drafting Hall of Fame talent - none of our guys project to be that.


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
Nah dude. I tend to agree with you. But This would have nothing to do with "big names" Kawhi is just that good! And he plays within the system. Perfect team Player, doesn't play ISO ball or need to control the ball. He's just goes out, is the best defender in the league and happens to be very good on offense too.

JJ, my biggest concern is the injury history and nothing else about Kawhi. I really don’t have many problems with him as a player and my post wasn’t about that. The Lakers as an organization just seems so thirsty for big names that they’re willing to do anything to get there. This is beyond Kawhi, this is the Lakers sacrificing young talent to get older vets for the whole “win now” mode


gemfow
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Tempy wrote:
That was the plan from the get go though. Bunches of people defended the Russell trade to free up cap space. It was obvious they were going to chase names. Now people want to get pissed about it?

I’m not sure if you remember or not but I’m not one who has defended that trade but you’re right, it’s obvious and I’m not a big fan of that strategy. I understand always trying to be in position to acquire talent but the Lakers seem willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone for players who aren’t even transcendent talents. The Lakers want Paul George but there is nothing that doesn’t indicate to me at least that Ingram can be as good or better than George.

I would understand the Lebron stuff about four years ago but now he will be 34 entering the season and I think he has about three prime years left. He’s such a physical specimen that he will probably be effective for that long.

Kawhi has been one of my favorite plyers in the league for a while. The Kawhi move doesn’t bother me as much as the superteam move. I personally believe fans are cheated out of the experience of their team growing into something special because management wants to compete with shortcuts


gemfow
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VS wrote:
Thanks Randy, good talking with you again too.

I understand the concern over trading both Kuzma and Ingram. I like both guys, and it would be painful to give them up, but I still think that my original point stands. Kuzma nor Ingram are ever very likely to be as good as Leonard. I would still have to bet that the next ten years of Kawhi’s career will be better than the next ten of Ingram’s. It’d be a good deal for both sides.

Ultimately, if there’s an opportunity to acquire LeBron James and Paul George and the “tax” is trading BI & KK for Leonard, then I think that’s reasonable. It puts us in an incredible position for the next 3 years, and a pretty solid position for the next 7-8 years based on George and Leonard’s age.

Throughout league history, teams have had to cash in nice young pieces to acquire big names to win titles. There are some instances where pure organic team building has lead to titles, but that requires drafting Hall of Fame talent - none of our guys project to be that.

The funny thing about projection is no one knows what a player will become. No one thought Leonard would be as good as he is but weirdly he developed into that. That’s always my concern about just giving up on a young player, especially ones who have shown a great work ethic and love to get better. The name of the game is potential and Ingram has plenty. Ingram is really young and trading him now would be foolish. Personally, I’d rther see Kuzma go because he’s 22 and doesn’t seem to have the upside of Ingram.


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JJCali wrote:
I wish Magic's punk a** would read this and what most of us write. We don't want this quick fix BS! I would strongly consider trading for KL who is still 26 years old till the end of this month. But I wouldn't even sign James or George. We are good. Keep moving.

Include Jeanie in that too. Depending on how one read her tweet, she more than likely wants it too. Her and Magic are like brother and sister but she want stand idly by this time like she did with her real sibling Jim.


SPQR
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VS,

Thank you very much. The feeling is mutual.

There will be a big market for Leonard for obvious reasons. The article I read said Leonard is from LA and wants to play for the Lakers. And that made me wonder, does he have a no trade clause in his contract? You know one where he can nix a trade if he didn't want to go to certain teams? If so then he can pressure the Spurs for the LA deal. If not he's at their mercy and the chances for LA decline precipitously.

Does anyone here know his trade situation?

This article came out today. If true and the Sun's are offering the one and other considerations that is a very good offer.

2018 NBA Draft trade rumors: Suns could explore Kawhi Leonard deal using their No. 1 pick

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2018 ... no-1-pick/

As an aside, I would never trade Ingram or lose him for George. Or get George and have Ingram lose minutes for him. George is a good player but not a true top level star in my view. I don't want anything to happen that would retard Ingram's PT. I think he could be something special.

And here is an interesting article about Ball. Like what I'm reading there including his defensive stats. But wish it had mentioned he's decided to change his shot, lol.

Lakers development coach praises Lonzo Ball's 'off the charts' basketball instincts

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/201 ... evelopment


suntzu619
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SPQR wrote:
VS,

Thank you very much. The feeling is mutual.

There will be a big market for Leonard for obvious reasons. The article I read said Leonard is from LA and wants to play for the Lakers. And that made me wonder, does he have a no trade clause in his contract? You know one where he can nix a trade if he didn't want to go to certain teams? If so then he can pressure the Spurs for the LA deal. If not he's at their mercy and the chances for LA decline precipitously.

Does anyone here know his trade situation?

This article came out today. If true and the Sun's are offering the one and other considerations that is a very good offer.

2018 NBA Draft trade rumors: Suns could explore Kawhi Leonard deal using their No. 1 pick

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2018 ... no-1-pick/

As an aside, I would never trade Ingram or lose him for George. Or get George and have Ingram lose minutes for him. George is a good player but not a true top level star in my view. I don't want anything to happen that would retard Ingram's PT. I think he could be something special.

And here is an interesting article about Ball. Like what I'm reading there including his defensive stats. But wish it had mentioned he's decided to change his shot, lol.

Lakers development coach praises Lonzo Ball's 'off the charts' basketball instincts

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/201 ... evelopment

I just read that the Spurs want nothing to do with Lonzo. Can you really blame them? IMO I'm starting to really believe that we’re going to strike out again this off season.


kkennon1
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SPQR wrote:
VS,

Thank you very much. The feeling is mutual.

There will be a big market for Leonard for obvious reasons. The article I read said Leonard is from LA and wants to play for the Lakers. And that made me wonder, does he have a no trade clause in his contract? You know one where he can nix a trade if he didn't want to go to certain teams? If so then he can pressure the Spurs for the LA deal. If not he's at their mercy and the chances for LA decline precipitously.

Does anyone here know his trade situation?

This article came out today. If true and the Sun's are offering the one and other considerations that is a very good offer.

2018 NBA Draft trade rumors: Suns could explore Kawhi Leonard deal using their No. 1 pick

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2018 ... no-1-pick/

As an aside, I would never trade Ingram or lose him for George. Or get George and have Ingram lose minutes for him. George is a good player but not a true top level star in my view. I don't want anything to happen that would retard Ingram's PT. I think he could be something special.

And here is an interesting article about Ball. Like what I'm reading there including his defensive stats. But wish it had mentioned he's decided to change his shot, lol.

Lakers development coach praises Lonzo Ball's 'off the charts' basketball instincts

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/201 ... evelopment

Local sports radio here saying Suns aren't looking at that trade at all. And he does not have a no trade clause.


userpete1037
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Yeah I'm not aware of Kawhi having a no trade clause either. But regardless, whatever he wants to play for, he still has all the power IMO. All he has to do is tell the Spurs that he has only 1 team he will be traded to and that seals it. Whether its the Lakers or someone else.


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
JJ, my biggest concern is the injury history and nothing else about Kawhi. I really don’t have many problems with him as a player and my post wasn’t about that. The Lakers as an organization just seems so thirsty for big names that they’re willing to do anything to get there. This is beyond Kawhi, this is the Lakers sacrificing young talent to get older vets for the whole “win now” mode

That's what I'm saying, I totally agree with you except for with KL. Because he's 26, soon to be 27. I think that's a smart trade, not just a win now-get a big name move. I'm not even addressing the injury part. That is a legitimate concern. They better figure that out if they make a move for him.


SPQR
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Kkennon,

Thanks for the info on both counts.

I would not trade the first pick and other considerations for Leonard if I were the Suns.

Pete,

I'm not sure Leonard has the power then. Many pro athletes get traded to teams they don't want to go to. Then it's either play or sit out all year and not get paid. I don't recall any who opted for option two off the top of my head. Of course there's always a first time but I'm not sure any team would take that threat seriously. Most teams will figure he will come around once he cools off.


kkennon1
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SPQR wrote:
Kkennon,

Thanks for the info on both counts.

I would not trade the first pick and other considerations for Leonard if I were the Suns.

Pete,

I'm not sure Leonard has the power then. Many pro athletes get traded to teams they don't want to go to. Then it's either play or sit out all year and not get paid. I don't recall any who opted for option two off the top of my head. Of course there's always a first time but I'm not sure any team would take that threat seriously. Most teams will figure he will come around once he cools off.

Think he has the power from what a team will give up for him if he tells them he will not resign or still test FA. Than their trade offers aren't going to be as much as Lakers or Clippers can probably offer. But still think Celtics hold all the cards. Read that them and Knicks could be on his list.


JJCali
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Tempy wrote:
That was the plan from the get go though. Bunches of people defended the Russell trade to free up cap space. It was obvious they were going to chase names. Now people want to get pissed about it?

We've been pissed about it the whole time. Didn't like that trade. Didn't like the Lou Williams trade. Didn't like the Clarkson trade.


JJCali
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SPQR wrote:
VS,

Thank you very much. The feeling is mutual.

There will be a big market for Leonard for obvious reasons. The article I read said Leonard is from LA and wants to play for the Lakers. And that made me wonder, does he have a no trade clause in his contract? You know one where he can nix a trade if he didn't want to go to certain teams? If so then he can pressure the Spurs for the LA deal. If not he's at their mercy and the chances for LA decline precipitously.

Does anyone here know his trade situation?

This article came out today. If true and the Sun's are offering the one and other considerations that is a very good offer.

2018 NBA Draft trade rumors: Suns could explore Kawhi Leonard deal using their No. 1 pick

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2018 ... no-1-pick/

As an aside, I would never trade Ingram or lose him for George. Or get George and have Ingram lose minutes for him. George is a good player but not a true top level star in my view. I don't want anything to happen that would retard Ingram's PT. I think he could be something special.

And here is an interesting article about Ball. Like what I'm reading there including his defensive stats. But wish it had mentioned he's decided to change his shot, lol.

Lakers development coach praises Lonzo Ball's 'off the charts' basketball instincts

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/201 ... evelopment

I wouldn't give up Ingram for George either. I would for Leonard though. If he's healthy.


JJCali
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suntzu619 wrote:
I just read that the Spurs want nothing to do with Lonzo. Can you really blame them? IMO I'm starting to really believe that we’re going to strike out again this off season.

I hope so. Just resign Randle & KCP.


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
We've been pissed about it the whole time. Didn't like that trade. Didn't like the Lou Williams trade. Didn't like the Clarkson trade.

Didn't at the time , but fine with them now, considering how Dlo and Clarkson have done. Would say Lakers won both trades. Imo


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
I wouldn't give up Ingram for George either. I would for Leonard though. If he's healthy.

Looks like teams have concerns about that!!!!

https://www.lakersnation.com/nba-trade- ... 018/06/17/


JJCali
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kkennon1 wrote:
Didn't at the time , but fine with them now, considering how Dlo and Clarkson have done. Would say Lakers won both trades. Imo

Well we bacially got nothing in return so I don't know about that. Plus it could lead to the FO throwing away our entire future for 34 year old James and we'll never win anything again. But sure if that's a success to some, then trade away.


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
Well we bacially got nothing in return so I don't know about that. Plus it could lead to the FO throwing away our entire future for 34 year old James and we'll never win anything again. But sure if that's a success to some, then trade away.

If James wants to come, he was coming regardless. But agree, would pass on him personally depending on how long contract is.


JJCali
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Yeah, at this point it's honestly more objective than just being a fan, I really hope it doesn't happen. Sure we will be competitive for a few years. But 100% don't see us winning a title, and we give up so much to win nothing.


SPQR
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JJCali wrote:
I wouldn't give up Ingram for George either. I would for Leonard though. If he's healthy.

Cali,

I understand why you say that about Leonard and Ingram. I would suspect almost every GM in the league agrees with you and would pull that trade.

Here's why I would be reticent. With Houston, Boston and of course the dreadnought Warrior dynasty there it is hard for me to see us winning the title in the next two years. So I'm really thinking up the road. Leonard by that time will be in his late twenties, not old, but on the back end of his prime years, especially for a player like him. When I look at Ingram I see things I don't in most players. His height and length are unusual and by that I mean a guy with those physical attributes who is so versatile. He can handle the rock, he can pass, he can shoot, he can drive. I mean they even have him playing point once in while. The other thing is from every article I have read, he has real drive. He works on his game all the time. He loves it. When you combine those two things you can end up with something very special. That's kind of what I'm hoping for.

There is a gamble in this of course, especially if you are offered a player like Leonard for him. It is also possible that Ingram will peak out at certain level of production. He may not get appreciably stronger, his body may just not be able to. Then he may end up a very good, limited player. Other things may happen. Who knows.

But off what I have seen and also heard about him, I will take that gamble. So I would need more than Leonard in a trade for him even though I'm sure I am in the minority on that.


JJCali
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SPQR, I agree with everything you're saying, however, if you look around the league, with the exception of Anthony Davis, the best players in the league are not that young these days. LBJ, C. Paul, Curry, Durant, Harden... I do not worry about K. Leonard being in his late 20s. The other thing is, and on paper you are correct, but I just don't see the Warriors dominating the league for the foreseeable future. They may get another title or 2, but I don't see it lasting forever, or each and every season. There will be fatigue, injuries, other issues may arise. Now I am not saying to rush in with this super team nonsense, but I don't think you necessarily need to postpone the competitiveness of the team out of fear of Warrior dominance. Now going all in on LBJ & Geore like I believe the FO wants to do and losing Randle at least, that is rushing to me. That will never work. That will be an epic failure. Even if LBJ is still better than KL. Adding KL to Ball, Hart, Randle, Zubac (and I'd retain KCP) and adding a defensive center I think makes us incredibly competitive moving forward. With some Celtic type teamwork, I could see that team contending within another year. I may be more optimistic on that group than you, but I think it could happen, even if the Warriors are better on paper. All this is predicated on Leonard being 100% healthy. Lets just say the Rockets pulled off a miracle and landed LBJ and we were able to acquire Capella, or even though his age doesn't match perfectly I'll use D. Jordan as an example, could you imagine how amazing of a defensive team Ball, KCP, Hart, KL, Randle and Capella or Jordan....


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
That's what I'm saying, I totally agree with you except for with KL. Because he's 26, soon to be 27. I think that's a smart trade, not just a win now-get a big name move. I'm not even addressing the injury part. That is a legitimate concern. They better figure that out if they make a move for him.
that's why I said this is beyond Kawhi, I'm talking about the Lakers in general. Wanting Lebron who is soon to be 34, wanting Paul George who is a very good player but Ingram is showing he can possibly be that or more, etc. this whole wanting a super team thing is ridiculous IMO. This isn't about Kawhi, I love Kawhi as a player, my post is more about the thirsty management in LA.


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
that's why I said this is beyond Kawhi, I'm talking about the Lakers in general. Wanting Lebron who is soon to be 34, wanting Paul George who is a very good player but Ingram is showing he can possibly be that or more, etc. this whole wanting a super team thing is ridiculous IMO. This isn't about Kawhi, I love Kawhi as a player, my post is more about the thirsty management in LA.

Agree. That's why my first post said I totally agree with you, just not on KL. Completely agree on the Others though. Nothing against George, but I'd rather go with Ingram for now. And definitely do not want $35.4M a year, team controlling, 34 year old prima dona that plays zero defense and loves to blame his teammates for everything, Lebron James. That would be horrible for what we currently have. And don't want to sacrifice a bright future for an aging star that won't be enough to win.


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
Agree. That's why my first post said I totally agree with you, just not on KL. Completely agree on the Others though. Nothing against George, but I'd rather go with Ingram for now. And definitely do not want $35.4M a year, team controlling, 34 year old prima dona that plays zero defense and loves to blame his teammates for everything, Lebron James. That would be horrible for what we currently have. And don't want to sacrifice a bright future for an aging star that won't be enough to win.

Funny what you say about James. He’s an awesome player but I’ve been telling people that this whole "he makes his teammates better" isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. From what I can tell, there isn’t a true offensive system that James is in. Is that the fault of coaching or James? If James wants to win some more rings then he needs to change. Westbrook will never win a ring imo, it’s the same issue, everyone get their shots off one player. I don’t want to see that in LA


gemfow
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I just saw an article about both LA teams concerned about Leonard’s health. I hope that’s true because it gives me serious pause. Leonard played nine games last season and even before that he’s had four seasons of around 65 games.


userpete1037
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gemfow wrote:
I just saw an article about both LA teams concerned about Leonard’s health. I hope that’s true because it gives me serious pause. Leonard played nine games last season and even before that he’s had four seasons of around 65 games.

I think there's legitimate concern there but having said that, don't think it will stop the F.O. from trying to go after him. Just hope if something happens, they don't give up the farm.


SPQR
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Cali, I think GS window is two more years, barring bad injury. Then as you say, attrition of various kinds will start to chip away. As far as postponing our getting better and going at them, then why not bring in Lebron, the best player in the game by far and George and Leonard? Then we will play them in the playoffs. And with Lebron, I would not bet my life we would not beat them. He's just that great. Just being totally honest there. I know for a fact GS would not want to play a team with Lebron, Leonard and George on it, because if I were a GS fan I would not want to see that team happen. I'm sure plenty of Lakers fans would love to see us get those three and make the big move. And I totally understand why they feel that way. For the reasons I've stated I'm not for it. I could be wrong though. We don't know what's in the future. So imagine this future, we get all three and good role players. That super team beats GS two or three times in the next three years, winning titles. Or say a different future, the one I want. We keep the young players but they just do not become what we hope. Things just don't really work out. We get good, but can't get over the hump and win it all. Then start to try build a different team. Then I would be the first one to say, yeah we should have moved those guys and taken that super team even for the short term. So if we knew those two futures, we would all want Lebron and George and Leonard. But the thing is, we don't know. All we can do is have....


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
Funny what you say about James. He’s an awesome player but I’ve been telling people that this whole he makes his teammates better isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. From what I can tell, there isn’t a true offensive system that James is in. Is that the fault of coaching or James? If James wants to win some more rings then he needs to change. Westbrook will never win a ring imo, it’s the same issue, everyone get their shots off one player. I don’t want to see that in LA

I will be completely objective here. James does not make most players better. He's very similar to Westbrook. The difference is he's not all about stat padding and just getting his like Westbrook, and he's a better player. So others think he's this guy that makes everyone around him better. But even objectively, I don't want James. He will ruin our future and all our young guys who look good now will probably look like trash. You're dead in about his teams on offense, doesn't seem to be much of a system, I too have blamed the coach, but it's gotta have a lot to do with him. There's a reason why someone like Kyrie didn't want to play with him. And just about everyone that joins his teams become trash.


JJCali
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SPQR, if they brought back mostly the same roster next year I'd expect them to be around .500. At least. I am not as high on Kuzma as you are though. Don't think he'll ever be a star. I think talent-wise we've seen it. He'll develop veteran skills imo, and I could see him as the type of player that contenders would want to add as a talented smart veteran type. But I don't mind him being sent out if the trade is right.

Objectively speaking, yes, if we knew we could win with the three stars then it would be the right move. But my rationale is that it's not worth mortgaging the future for stars with no guarantee we win. I don't know that that team beats GS. Especially as James gets way up there in age. Don't think LBJ is THAT great that he gets us for sure titles. That's my reasoning for not wanting to go star hunting. I think building around Ball, Ingram & Randle is a better plan. I think all three can and will be stars. That gives us a great future.


ralppcobarde
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JJCali wrote:
I will be completely objective here. James does not make most players better. He's very similar to Westbrook. The difference is he's not all about stat padding and just getting his like Westbrook, and he's a better player. So others think he's this guy that makes everyone around him better. But even objectively, I don't want James. He will ruin our future and all our young guys who look good now will probably look like trash. You're dead in about his teams on offense, doesn't seem to be much of a system, I too have blamed the coach, but it's gotta have a lot to do with him. There's a reason why someone like Kyrie didn't want to play with him. And just about everyone that joins his teams become trash.

Yes. but he obviously makes the team better. unless you are a floor general that is. Every team he is on , is in Finals every year.


JJCali
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ralppcobarde wrote:
Yes. but he obviously makes the team better. unless you are a floor general that is. Every team he is on , is in Finals every year.

Of course he makes the team better.

But don't make it sound like he's been on 6 teams. It's just 2.

And actually, he obviously makes a team better, but he doesn't necessarily make it better than the sum of its parts. With Bosh & Wade and a group of vets, he should've had way more than 2 rings. And with Kyrie & Love he probably should have more than 1, although they did get hurt the first year...


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
SPQR, if they brought back mostly the same roster next year I'd expect them to be around .500. At least. I am not as high on Kuzma as you are though. Don't think he'll ever be a star. I think talent-wise we've seen it. He'll develop veteran skills imo, and I could see him as the type of player that contenders would want to add as a talented smart veteran type. But I don't mind him being sent out if the trade is right.

Objectively speaking, yes, if we knew we could win with the three stars then it would be the right move. But my rationale is that it's not worth mortgaging the future for stars with no guarantee we win. I don't know that that team beats GS. Especially as James gets way up there in age. Don't think LBJ is THAT great that he gets us for sure titles. That's my reasoning for not wanting to go star hunting. I think building around Ball, Ingram & Randle is a better plan. I think all three can and will be stars. That gives us a great future.

Interesting that you say Kuz won't be a star or we've seen it talent wise , when he's 1 year younger than Randle ( and I'm not saying he will be ), but I feel the same way about Randle. Guess it would depend on your definition of star. Are we talking Kobe, James, Harden, Magic, AD, Durant, etc. level stars? Because I don't see any of them becoming that.


JJCali
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^^ no. Those are what you call all time greats. Not stars. Lowry, Green, Horford... those are stars. Then you gut superstars then you got guys like Durant & James, then you got Kobe/Jordan. There are levels to it. I can see Ball being a Jason Kidd type though. Ingram a poor man's Durant. Randle a chris Webber-draymond type PF. Maybe not as good as a prime Webber, but close. I could see Kuzma as a Luol Deng, Andre Iguadala, Jason Terry, Boris Diaw level player.


ralppcobarde
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JJCali wrote:
Of course he makes the team better.

But don't make it sound like he's been on 6 teams. It's just 2.

And actually, he obviously makes a team better, but he doesn't necessarily make it better than the sum of its parts. With Bosh & Wade and a group of vets, he should've had way more than 2 rings. And with Kyrie & Love he probably should have more than 1, although they did get hurt the first year...

Its relative obvious that he makes the team better so basically he makes his teammates around better. But then again,he is a dominant superstar such as Kobe,Iverson or Tmac back in the days where they don't statistically makes their teammates better So don't expect the teammates around him to be better statistically.

When Love & Irving got down, he made Mozgov & Delly maximized their capabilities, Lebron was the reason we even considered Mozgov as our center.

Am no fan of Lebron but come on, he makes around him better and the team essentially

He ain't a floor general that people want it to portray to make his teammates better respectively. Such as CP3 or Jason Kidd. Thats not his main role. He is all around damn good player. He scores, facilitates and does everything where you can ask for.

In essence take Lebron off either Cavs/Heat and they will suck. Put Lebron on any team and they are conference finals bound.

It seems that you have concern on the sum of the parts of the team but thats more of a coach responsibility and how those pieces blend each other. But nonethless, Lebron didnt played with a coach who is a system & formal approach unlike with Pop and Pjax with Kobe or MJ.This is why teams are so spoiled with Lebron that they rely too much to him to bring them to the promised land.

People are so fixated with the GOAT debate that people forget that what Lebron so good is he didnt have any influence or a mentor that is very known or famous coming out of drafr. He is just that Transcendent.


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
^^ no. Those are what you call all time greats. Not stars. Lowry, Green, Horford... those are stars. Then you gut superstars then you got guys like Durant & James, then you got Kobe/Jordan. There are levels to it. I can see Ball being a Jason Kidd type though. Ingram a poor man's Durant. Randle a chris Webber-draymond type PF. Maybe not as good as a prime Webber, but close. I could see Kuzma as a Luol Deng, Andre Iguadala, Jason Terry, Boris Diaw level player.

If that's the level we're talking about, than I agree with you. But I also think we'll need at least 1 superstar to bring it all together.


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
I will be completely objective here. James does not make most players better. He's very similar to Westbrook. The difference is he's not all about stat padding and just getting his like Westbrook, and he's a better player. So others think he's this guy that makes everyone around him better. But even objectively, I don't want James. He will ruin our future and all our young guys who look good now will probably look like trash. You're dead in about his teams on offense, doesn't seem to be much of a system, I too have blamed the coach, but it's gotta have a lot to do with him. There's a reason why someone like Kyrie didn't want to play with him. And just about everyone that joins his teams become trash.

That's my mindset as well. The teammates aren't necessarily better, they have to alter their games significantly. Bosh was a hell of a post up player (face up) in Toronto and essentially became a spot up shooter in Miami. Even with possibly a top 3 SG in Wade and a top 3 PF in Bosh, Miami won two titles and one of those titles were a great three point shot by Ray Allen from being one title. How is there so much talent on one team and the results are so minimal? People started blaming the coach, the role players and never looked at the team only operating well when James put up big numbers. It's because there wasn't a system to get the lesser guys shots. James should be looking for a strong coach as opposed to a strong superteam. Poppovich with James on the roster would lead to a championship imo. Popp will hold James accountable, thesystem comes first and when James sits there wouldn't be a huge dropoff because there is a system and not players waiting to get their shots off James.


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
^^ no. Those are what you call all time greats. Not stars. Lowry, Green, Horford... those are stars. Then you gut superstars then you got guys like Durant & James, then you got Kobe/Jordan. There are levels to it. I can see Ball being a Jason Kidd type though. Ingram a poor man's Durant. Randle a chris Webber-draymond type PF. Maybe not as good as a prime Webber, but close. I could see Kuzma as a Luol Deng, Andre Iguadala, Jason Terry, Boris Diaw level player.
That's pretty much how I see it. There are the all-time greats, there are stars, superstars, etc. I'm not a big fan of we need to go all in for Paul George. Why? Ingram is developing into something similar. I understand Kawhi and going after him but at what price for a guy who has shown a pretty extensive injury history. If he played 65 games last season I wouldn't be as hesitant but he played 9 games and the injury is somewhat a mystery. I know every player is different but Tony Parker had a similar injury and most people say it was worse (rupture) but essentially Kawhi's injury has been labeled as tendinopathy and he's out the whole season dang near.

I'd give up Kuzma for him because I don't believe Kuzma's ceiling is much higher. I believe him getting experience will help aid his growth but we are talking about Kuzma who can shoot, drive pass, etc. and there aren't too many things he needs to work on offensively imo. Randle without a jumpshot and barely a right hand had similar numbers and I look at the long game of when he gets that jumpshot and that right hand then what can a team do to guard him? This is why I'm excited about Randle and I hope he takes another step, he seems to be a hard worker.


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So here is why we need to go all in this summer. I agree Ingram is developing great and there a decent chance he is going to get a big payday from us in 3 years. We need to get as much talent as possible this summer while our core is on rookie deals and Julius is only costing us 12.5 million against our cap. In 2 years from now would you like to have a team with Ingram on it or a team with Ingram and PG13 on it. In my eyes, since the Lakers are rich, any talent we get this year is free talent. Because when we have to pay Julius / Ingram / Lonzo / Kuz there goes our cap just like that. We get these guys (LeBron and PG13) now and we would still being able to pay our guys over the cap. Let me know which team you would like more? Option 1: Lonzo / Hart / Ingram / Kuz / Randle Bench: Bryant / Zubac / vet min / vet min Option 2: Lonzo / Max FA / Ingram / Max FA / Randle Bench: Kuz / Hart / vet min / vet min If we don't bring in talent this summer, then option 1 will be our team to hope we win a ring with. But if we bring in talent now, then we could have everything we have now plus 2 all stars. It hard to compete with the Warriors, when the Warriors have wiggled around the cap to be allowed to spend 150 million next year on their player salaries. There is a reason while the 2 most expensive teams over the last 4 years have meet in the finals the last 4 years. We need....


gemfow
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Ray wrote:
So here is why we need to go all in this summer. I agree Ingram is developing great and there a decent chance he is going to get a big payday from us in 3 years. We need to get as much talent as possible this summer while our core is on rookie deals and Julius is only costing us 12.5 million against our cap.

Ray,

I should have worded it better. Honestly, I'm all for going to get someone like Paul George. Why? He's a guy who is a star in the league and plays on both ends. I'm all for Kawhi even though I have injury concerns but I don't want the Lakers to give up the farm for him (because their hopes are we have Kawhi and other guys will want to play with him).

My issues from what I've been reading is that the Lakers are possibly looking at a superteam. I don't believe the superteams really work all that well Miami ended up with two rings (If SA didn't blow game 6 it would have been one ring). Bron was 26 when he went to Miami, which means Bosh was 26 and Wade was 28. Those are prime years with a very powerful nucleus but it wasn't a great fit, not like Goldenstate, it's because each guy needed the ball to be effective. My issue with the Lakers wanting to go all in with some of the rumors swirling around is that I don't feel it's a great match of talent. James and George? How does James fit into this offensive system even though he seems to be rarely involved in an actual offensive system? I'd rather see someone like George, Randle and a center as opposed to James, Kawhi and George potentially


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