The Religion Discussion Topic

I'm agnostic about religion. I simply do believe certain things from a various amount of religions and I just can not choose one due to the fact that I do not know for a fact. I do; however, believe it is very important for someone to have something to believe in and to have faith. It is always nice to have the comfort that there is someone on a higher plain to back your journey through life. Adults tend to stray away from their parents and build a life on their own and with that, the parenthood presence missing, God or any higher being one may believe in is what provides a safe haven. Lebron did not have a father to begin with, so God clearly was one of his driving factors and there is no reason to discredit him upon that. No matter what one's belief is, one can only applaud and adorn someone for his dedication and commitment to his craft. So what if God may be fake? Who are you to belittle someone as great as Lebron? If he believes in his religion so be it, have an open mind and just understand that faith is what drives everyone. Whether you believe in science, religion or anything really; sometimes believing in something that is not there is better than not believing at all.

SPQR at first glance I was about to dismiss you as another God hating Bill maher. but I see that your post although SOUNDS astute and clever, is riddled with ignorance in the sense that you're trying to expound on a subject in which you are abhorrently unknowledgable inexperienced and therefore can not fathom. As is usually the case with most aethiests or non believers. For example, as a teacher, I Have tried for years to keep my girls away from making horrendous life decisions like having children out of wedlock. But no matter how much I Have preached the pain and anguish of raising a child alone in your twenties, that horror is never realized until they actually become pregnant. Now I was never a single parent but after years of teaching I have seen the destruction that comes from it so I try to protect them from it. i have several who NOW understand what so many have tried to explain. I have one on the verge of committing suicide.... hospital bound. So what's the point? The point is that Some things are not understood until experienced. The Chinese say that saying something a hundred times is not as effective as living it once. I'm sure it's safe to assume you're not a Christian. your derrogatory remarks and snide comments about the "big gm in the sky" are offensive to me. A lot of things you said were offensive to me but that is your right, And it's ok. We live in an era where it's cool to mock Christianity and degrade God. However since you've never EXPERIENCED the love that IS ....

Zcheck,

You say my reference to the big GM in the sky insults you? I have heard Christians call god the big guy in the sky, the big coach in the sky, the big almost everything in the sky. Does it offend you?

I can promise you, that the offense you manufacture over my words is nothing compared to the insult and hurt people like you have caused people for centuries, by denying people who love each other their right to marry. My words are just words, what your ilk does is destroy peoples happiness and ruin their lives. And you do it with all the lack of empathy and self righteous bullsh*t you can muster. Think about that the next time the words big whatever in the sky insults you.

Please save the persecution complex too. That is so like people like you. You stop people from enjoying their rights as citizens, then turn around and complain you are being persecuted when some people finally stand up and say, enough of being denied their rights by Christians? What civil rights of yours has been taken from you? Talk about ignorance. Christians have persecuted and hounded people more in this county than other other people. If you knew anything about history, you would know it.

You talk about my cleverly disguised ignorance. I know you like to take our conversations to a low level, no matter what the discussion. I will say this, since I am not going to get into that here, because this a basketball site, and there are religious people here I respect, I will not answer you, nor skewer you and your ignorance in a way I could. If you want to PM me about this, I will glady oblige you on that score. But I can promise you, you won't like the way that conversation goes or how I make you look. You would learn what the true meaning of ignorance is. I would give you all of it that you hold, measure by measure.

Tony,

I used the holocaust just a small example of the suffering that humanity has gone through. You are right about slavery, Stalin and so many other instances of mass slaughter and suffering. You can take this back to the Roman Empire and way beyond.

Tony, there is something very nauseating to me to watch this parade of smiling, filthy rich, teeth capped sports and entertainment stars parade up to these podium and tell everyone how god is good. There is just this feeling you get that these people are just so self involved, their worlds so narrow and shallow they haven't a clue about what happens on this planet. I can guarantee you, if I were a rich celeb, and I were religious, and I were a believe, I would not be in front of microphones talking about god being good. For the simple reason I would understand the suffering so many people are experiencing. I would now people are starving to death. I would no people can't find jobs. I would know parents are watching their kids die of disease. I would know old people are sleeping in the streets and freezing to death. I would know all these horrors are going on and more. Anyone who is that fortunate, as they are, yet understands what so many humans have gone through or are going through, cannot just give these vapid smiles and start to babble about god being good. I mean where is their understand of the nature of what people are going through? How callow can you be? How detached are they? How out of touch with real people or the world are they? There is just something about this that strikes me in a wrong way.

SPQR, Well! You told me huh? I must have touched a nerve. But since I'm neither scared nor impressed by your rant I'll say this. When you respect someone, regardless if it's me or another Christian on here, You don't mock them. the fact that your opinions were riddled with mockery and sarcasm towards LeBron and other athletess who reference their creator show that you indeed have no respect for their beliefs. You can not disrespect someone and say you respect them. Secondly here's the difference between you and I. I may not believe in homosexuality or believe that the definition of marriage should be changed because two men want to tie the knot. However since I attended the union of my co worker to her partner last summer, it stands to reason that what I believe and how I treat people are two very different things. To my knowledge I have never gotten on this site or any other to bash gay peoples beliefs. I have not attended any rallies demonstrating my beliefs. You on the other hand believe that your"words" are oh so innocent. You believe that it is harmless to get on here and degrade what other people believe in and make light of everything that some People hold sacred. Now you may be right about history but our present state has been brought about by you and your disregard for me and others like me. And just like you I can be nasty with my words but I have chosen not to. You posted a column and I responded. You and I are....

Zheck-

1. Bill Maher is an atheist. It is outside the bounds of logic to hate that which you believe does not exist.

2. I know many, many single parents who would not change the lives they have for any price.

3. That "Experiencing the love that is god" thing must be real powerful since it prevented Pope Urban VIII from taking the liberty of one of the greatest minds in human history, Galileo Galilei, forcing him to renounce his own beliefs (which were provable facts) - his alternative being sentenced to death - just for holding a different belief and also prevents Pastor Terry Jones of Florida from hijacking the funerals of heroes to forward his own hateful agenda. Oh, wait... it doesn't do any of those things.

This persecution complex is hilarious. Because somebody holds a different belief, they are attacking yours? Gay people would like to get married to each other, not force YOU to marry them. It is religious zealots who are forcing their beliefs on others - and always have - not the other way around.

Hey London laker I'll have a meaningful conversation with you because you not trying to insult me. Now I'm unclear as to whether your comment was to me or to Christians in general. But let's look at a couple of things. The Bible says, HE THAT LOVES NOT KNOWS NOT GOD, FOR GOD IS LOVE. So people who kill maim hate and destroy lives"in the name of God"couldn't be further from Him if they tried. People always try to attribute the atrocious that man do in the name of God, TO GOD. But if you knew what God himself said, You would know that any hateful act has NOTHING to do with God. Secondly, if your comment was to me and not a general one I'll say this. I did not respond to SPQR because he has a different belief than I do. I responded to him because he was mocking my God. We can go back and forth on kobe all day but disrespecting peoples personal beliefs are out of bounds as this is a sports site. Whether you agree with his viewpoints on homosexuality or gay marriage is irrelevant, he was very disrespectful in his language and tune about my Lord. But here's the funny thing, it's ok. He has that right but I also have the right to let him know that I will NOT stand by and let him disrespect my God without saying anything. HE brought gay marriage into this. I could care less. My comments were a direct response to his blatant disrespect of Christians on here. Like I said before I've attended....

Yeah lol there are a lot of people out there that put crazy things up on a pedestal. Praise to things I wouldn't even dare mention or utter but hey everyone's got there own reason or reasons to live.

This pic/tweet sums up what you're talking about.

Zcheck, I am glad you attended that union. But I will say this, if you had your druthers, you would not allow gay marriage would you? Honestly, you would impress your beliefs onto others, even to the extent of abrogating their rights as citizens, right? You would do it, if you could. We both know it. There is reason we have seperation of church and state. So we don't have a theocracy here. There are countries that do. They set a fine example of why we have this seperation. Many are found in the middle east. Iran is one. Check out what goes on in those countries. A couple other things to address with you. You say you take insult with me calling god the big GM upstairs. Now let me ask you something else. Your religion says I will rot in hell because I don't believe as you do. Rot in hell, for eternity. Should I take insult in that? Now I don't, simply because I understand that hell is just another part of that particular fantasy invented back in the day when people had no understanding of reality. A fantasy that was derivative of even older fantasies. But let me ask you, shouldn't I take offense that your religion says I will rot in some hell because I don't subcribe to it? Of course I should. And I know people who do take offense. So save the "I take offense" stuff since your religion has been insulting people, in so many myriad ways than just this example, for thousands of years. And still does. Lastly, you say it is cool to now criticize religion. No, it's not. But you know what is cool, the fact some people, who live in the 21st century finally are starting, because of science, to understand the....

I beg to differ.....

SPQR it was not my intention to offend you. Indeed I found you comments offensive as you were making a joke of what I deem sacred. But Like I said before it's ok. Here are my beliefs as it pertains to gay marriage. This country was founded established on Christian beliefs. Our laws and values everything about America is rooted in Christianity. I happen to believe in Christianity and it's teachings therefore I believe in the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. If it were up to me men and men women and women would be free to enter loving unions and be blessed with the same rights benefits and protections as a man and wife. HOWEVER it would be called a civil union and NOT marriage. Because"marriage" is the legal union between a man and a woman. NO Christian or sane human being would want to deny anyone the right to be with whom they desire because this is NOT about denying gays but protecting the values and beliefs that this country stands on. My beliefs and stance has nothing to do with gay people but everything to do with protecting marriage. Christians do NOT oppose being with whom you love, We oppose the disintegration of marriage to something that is in direct opposition to the teachings of God and the underlying values of this country. I'll say this again. .. parking myself in my garage all day doesn't make me a car. And two men marrying doesn't make it a marriage. Your anger is displaced. You may find the notion of being told you're going to hell offensive as you should have....

Zcheck, Fair enough. I would say this, a lot of people, even well intentioned ones, just have a problem putting themselves in other peoples shoes. That is why you never considered that your religion saying I will rot in hell could be insulting to me. Because it is your religion that says it, so you didn't put yourself in the shoes of those who don't subcribe to it. I suspect you never even realized that someone may take offense to some organized religion telling them they will rot in hell could very correctly be taken as an insult. If I am wrong on that, tell me honestly. I also meant no offense by using the term, big GM in the sky. I honestly have heard many Christians call god by various, humerous names. If I offended you by it, I apologize for that offense. Same with Gay marriage. I understand why you feel as you do. But you are not putting yourself in others shoes. I watched a documentary about Gay marriage and their lack of ability to do it. I saw these two sweet old ladies, in their late 80s. Everyones gentle grandmothers, you know what I mean. They fell in love in their early twenties. They stayed together, often hiding their relationship their whole lives. They stayed together longer than more than 50 percent of conventional marrages, because that is the number that ends in divorce. And I watched these two old, gentle, weak ladies, at the end of their lives talking about their love, their life long relationship, that for many decades they had to hide. And they talked about how important it was for them to get married. How much they wanted to express their love and relationship to each other with a wedding. A marriage. Not a union. A marriage.....

SPQR, I accept your apology as I extend mine.

Honestly, there is no where in the Bible I believe it's stated one would rot in hell if they don't subscribe to Christianity. For example one of the references to hell says. .. the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. The word rot in any context is offensive but.. I'm not certain it's used in reference to hell in the Bible. A true Christian, a born again Christian would never speak or try to convince someone of God by scaring or insulting them. anyone telling you you will rot in hell is off base for only love can change the human heart. Christianity is not the same as Gods harsh judgement for breaking His law, it's the grace He imparts and the pardon from death (hell) given to ALL who believe in Christ whos paid the price we SHOULD pay.

And it's ok to believe that it's mans Own abilities that sustain him during harsh moments... Some believe different and that's also ok. We need to find a common ground in this country. Gays should be allowed to be with whom they please but without destroying what others believe and what this country was founded on. I think this issue would have been solved years ago had gays pushed for equal rights and protection under CIVIL UNIONS. The push back has come from the insistence of changing the definition of "marriage" to mean the same thing as gays believe. Christians believe very strongly in marriage. .. they're not going to change their minds any time soon. But alas we're merely humans. I've enjoyed this discourse and I hope I've explained the other sides perspective a little better.

I hope you have a good night and go Lakers.

They can if it supports their best interest. And those of their publicists and agents. It's amazing what pple can do when money and reps are on the line. Not you or I, but many many others...

I am a born-again Christian and have observed that all religions these days are respected except Christianity. Hollywood and the music industry have virtually launched an undeclared war against Christianity; and the fact that an athlete who references "the man upstairs" offends someone is a testament to how much impact pop entertainment is having on our culture.

SPQR, I rather suspect you are more desirous of showing yourself "wise' and 'literary" rather than truly being a seeker of the truth. If that were not so, rather than posting your atheistic comments on a sports discussion board, you would be reading the works of such Christian apologists as Ravi Zacharias, C.S. Lewis, and Francis Schaeffer, who have eloquently and capably addressed the argument of suffering that has revealed itself to be about as lame as Tiny Tim Cratchit on crack.

Lakedog, I don't feel myself all that wise. But I am educated enough in science and the history of the world, mankind and the universe to understand certain obvious conclusions that come from them. The fact that I understand this information, which is readily available to enyone curious enough to learn it, doesn't make me all that wise. It just means I was curious enough to learn that information. What it says about you, that you didn't or don't want to, or wish to deny it, I'll let you decide. I am kind of tired of people in the year 2013 using a fantasy, invented by men who were scared and looking for answers, who had no concept of the nature of man, the universe or the world at that time, to push certain amounts of crap on others such as abrogating their rights as citizens or to hold back progress like stem cell research because of said belief in that fantasy. I will also tell you this in all honesty, since you were so honest with me, to show you what's up. If I were a true believer and I got sick with cancer you know what I would do? I would say, Man, now I can go those great place where I will be happy for eternity. This is the best thing that could happen to me. But since I am not a believer, what I would do is go see a doctor and try get science to cure me. Because I know this is all there is and I want stay and enjoy it as long as I can. But here is the funny thing about it. You know, believers like you, they do the same thing I would. Now they could pray to their god for a cure, right. And in....

SPQR,

This seems like an inappropriate discussion to have on a sports forum. So I will write this one more response before the moderator steps in and says that's enough. But when I read your posts, SPQR, I'm reminded of the child whose father is a newspaper reporter. When the teacher asked the child what his father does for a living, the child responds, "My daddy writes the ABC's."

Your understanding of the Universal First Cause is so child-like. God is the author of all that is -- that includes cause-and-effect, unity in multiplicity, free-will, thought and emotion. Religion, science, and philosophy are simply the three great prisms through which to view the works of the one God. Only the narrow-minded and you divide these methods into competing camps. If you would read the current works of many quantum physicists, you would find that science is now proving many spiritual tenets that was once the sole domain of people of faith. How is that possible? Because all real truth discovered in whatever field of human knowledge points to the one reality and the one god.

Lakedog, Yep, so you say. But the problem is, not a shred of proof or evidence. While science and history mitigate against all of it and will continue to do so more and more as knowledge expands over more time. It would be like me saying, hey Lakedog, I have this god in my closet, he tells me things. Your natural response would be, Lets see him. Yet you believe in the god of the closet yourself. We know why. Your terrified of death so you need to believe it. It freaks you out. I understand that. Death is not a fun concept. And it wasn't back in the day when we invented god. It freaked people out back then too. And see, when you boil it all down, thats the real crux of it all. People are terrified of dying and the invent and run to certain religions that promise eternal life. Because right now, until science gives us the real thing, its all we have. I will go back to my last post for one more point. If you get cancer, Lakedog, you will seek treatment. We know that. But think of this, if you get cancer, and since you believe god controls everything, isn't that his way of saying, Its your time to come to me? It would seem logical, since before science started curing cancers, that is exactly what happened. So why will you seek that treatment with human science? Why won't you just let gods cancer take you up to him? If it is as you say, and he controls everything, then you are trying to circumvent his will be seeking human, scientific treatment for the gift of cancer he gave you. One more observation on religion of eternal life. Remember that Heavens Gate cult? All 36 of them offed....

SPQR is a moderator

SPQR, you seem to measure the quality of your questions by your own inability to answer. You need to step out of your own mind and read more. When I am struggling with issues of faith, I do not go onto sports discussion boards seeking answers, no more than I would sleep in a Holiday Inn Express if I were seeking cures to problems with my health. Besides personal reflection, I would seek to read what men of renown have written on the subject.

Lakedog, Well actually this thread started out as commentary on how oblivius athletes and enterainers can be to truth of the world condition. How they view themselves as these very special people who god has taken a very personal interest in. Then, from various posters, it became more a debate on religion. That is partially my fault. I have been around the block long enough to know if you bring religion into a topic, any topic, no matter the context, a religious debate, then arguement is most likely to follow. When I wrote the piece, I hoped it wouldn't go that route, but I guess it was inevitible as I should have known. I don't measure my questions on my inablity to answer. I can answer any question I pose and often do, lol. If I wanted to, I could use questions, based on fact, to question what you believe because its in the bible. I haven't chosen to to that simply because I don't want to go down that road. It is not something I really want to do. If you want to engage in a real question and answer discussion, and we would have to be civil or there would be no point, about religion and your beliefs and mine, you can certainly PM me and I will oblige and tell you exacty why I belive what I do and you can question me about it and I of course would do the same with you. Also, I am sorry if I played rough with you. I only did it with you and Zcheck, because you guys started off rough with me. If you read through this thread, you will see while I disagreed with several posters, and they with me, we kept it level and cool. You and Zcheck decided to take....

SPQR,

You have my personal email address. If you agree to a mutual exchange of personal email addresses, I will be more than glad to have religious conversations with you. But only if you are truly interested in seeking truth; if otherwise, please don't waste your and my time. I found your attack on LeBron's faith offensive, and it makes me question your intent.

Hey Zheck, First off, thanks for replying respectfully. Perhaps if prominent Christians and Atheists kept things as civil as you, the debate might be accelerated toward a mutually acceptable conclusion and much strife could be avoided. My comments were not directed toward you personally. I wouldn't presume to know you well enough to guess if you take sugar in your coffee, so I'm certainly not going to pretend to be an expert on the minutiae of your personal spirituality. The fact that you have attended a union of two women and actually believe that homosexual couples deserve equal protection under the law just....

alot of long posts, are we having essay contest?! loll

Hey LL I appreciate the cordial reply. I am married and as a black woman who sees 50% of my students coming from broken homes, many of my ex girls now pregnant and fumbling though life and a lot of or young men angry and on paths to destruction. ...I take my marriage very seriously and hold it in esteem. To give my kids something tangible and to be a role model to them. I'm not a perfect human being but I try to live right. On the issue of gay marriage I'll have to respectfully disagree because of this. The most basic unit of every successful society is the family. Even in the deep forests of Africa where there is no knowledge of God, human instincts build on man woman and child. That is not my opinion that is a fact. A society lives and thrives by the next and next generations. Children who come from homes with both parents father and mother are 80% more successful wealthier healthier and contribute more to their communities and society. Hence the importance of the traditional family. Again not my opinion. America is the richest must prosperous nation on the planet and it was built on a simple premise. .. in God we trust. A true marriage in Christianity (not the kardashians) is blessed and ordained by God. So when two men or women stand up and say we want to get MARRIED, that is in direct opposition to God because homosexuality is not of God. You're right all sin is sin but homosexuals are not asking to ride the bus, they're asking to....

Zheck, Under the law, we are all protected equally from crimes against our property and person. For 80% of United States history, this was not so. You, as a black woman, wouldn't have had anything close to the rights and privileges that I, as a white man, would have had until the last half-century or so. Obviously, America realized that this was no way to run a country and ultimately changed its laws. Some people disagreed with those changes, and are still being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world. Some people still hold racist beliefs and use epithets when describing those of a different race, but we rightfully dismiss those people as ignorant and hateful... trolls who should not be fed. It was wrong of white Americans to subjugate another race. It would have been wrong of ME to stand idly by and watch it happen just because MY rights and privileges weren't being abridged. I hold my own (straight) marriage in just as much esteem as you do yours, but I do not feel that it is under any kind of threat if a gay couple wants to enjoy the same type of relationship. Human rights are not a finite commodity... giving them to one group does not take them away from any other. So this "one nation under god" believed for over 300 years that slavery was right. The Bible even talks about how one should treat one's slaves. You could even say that slavery was "blessed by god" in the same way that heterosexual marriage was. I find it very interesting that not long before the old testament was written, the human population was on the verge of extinction. DNA research has shown that the human race was in a "genetic bottleneck" where there were perhaps as few as 5,000....

As a black American and a direct descendent of the Civil Rights movement, as I experienced my early adulthood in the 70's, I resent homosexuals piggybacking on black Civil Rights, not because of some selfish claims on a freedom movement, but because homosexuality is wrong. Comparing the homosexual movement to black Civil Rights is like comparing Nazism to Zionism.

Christianity makes a strong case against homosexuality, but as I am clearly talking to a largely non-Christian audience, I will make my case against the abominable practice on reason alone. There are three unassailable arguments against the practice. First is the intellectual argument of biological design. Nothing more loudly expresses the fact that men and women were made to be compatible than the design of the human anatomy. To ignore that and lust after one's own sex is to wag one's feeble member in the face of nature herself, while at the same time shouting, "I defy You! I will change nature and nature's laws!" The second is what philosopher Emanuel Kant called the moral argument. A practice is morally right, he said, if it can be practiced by all people, in all places, at all times. Can homosexuality stand up against that litmus test? Of course not. It would mean the extinction of the human race. And lastly is the argument from sacred texts. Homosexuality has been condemned by practically all the world's major religions.

Of course we all instinctively know that the practice is wrong, but willful human pride to show ourselves enlightened defaces that innate knowledge. As Christian scripture says, that is why God turns such people over to their depraved practices. Research studies reveal that homosexual men have between 20 and 100 sexual partners per year, as compared with the average heterosexual person having 8 partners in a lifetime ("Everyone Should Know These Statistics on Homosexuals" by Frank Joseph, M.D.).

I hear you LL. We just have different perspectives.... neither of us are infallible and neither of us 100% wrong. I agree in rights for all humans, We should all have the opportunity to live our best life to it's fullest. However I don't believe that our values have to be destroyed in the process. I firmly believe that the Lords way is the best way whether you believe in God or not. You Don't have to believe that fornication is a sin to understand the wisdom behind it. Whether you abstain because of religion or personal preference, STDs unwanted pregnancy broken homes crime and over crowded jails would dry up and die of people waited until marriage tohave sex. So see, it always comes back to God and his wisdom. He can't be erased dismissed or legally written away. But while we try to maintain values we should try just as hard to make sure everyone has the opportunity to live their best life.

So you believe that the average homosexual man has sex with at least 20 different men per year? Those are some bogus statistics to go by! I don't even think you could get those statistics if the studies were conducted on MTV's show "The Real World". I believe that gay and straight men both have a stronger desire for sex than women because of testosterone, so sexual occurrences are bound to go up for gay men. That being said, I have personally known and been friends with many homosexuals over the years and I'm pretty damn sure that not a single one of them has had 20 sexual partners in one year, let alone 100!

I would provide you web addresses, but I was instructed not to because of possible spam. I am not in the bed with homosexuals so I don't know, but here are just a few reports. Feel free to slug them and look them up:

1. Statistics on sexual promiscuity among homosexuals

by Matt Slick

2. Myths and Facts about Homosexuality. "Studies indicate that the average male homosexual has hundreds of sex partners in his lifetime."

3. Facts on Homosexuality / Sodomy

4. The Health Risks of Gay Sex

JOHN R. DIGGS, JR., M.D.

Unfortunately studies done by Matt Slick and John R. Diggs can not be trusted seeing as though they are hardcore religious figures who have an agenda against homosexuals.

Quotes from nonsectarian publications:

"A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having 1,000 or more sex partners."

"A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than a hundred sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than a thousand sexual partners."

"In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, M. Pollak found that 'few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.'"

Believe in something, its crazy to think you came straight from nothing. Science can tell us how, it can't tell us why. Same with facts, it can tell us the truth but it can't say why and in that instance of thinking, is anything fact?

Wow! I've actually enjoyed reading these different posts/debates.

Where do I stand? I love the church that I go to, actually everyone's favorite Laker right now Swaggy P went there. First Baptist Church of Glenarden. Personally I' love this church because it's a teaching church, but teaching what? I tell people I'm more spiritual than I am religious because religions seem to cause separation, violence, disrespect and so on.

I don't get offended when someone speaks of God in a certain way. Why should I? It's not as if most education comes by God himself in a way that people can decipher easily. Instead education is through a middle man/woman and usually it takes someone to truly see for themselves to believe. I prefer to stay away from subjects like this because well, this posts showed a little glimpse of why but I did enjoy reading people's thoughts and I respect them fully no matter what they believe in.

SPQR, you have to understand that religion is a matter of faith. if you try to question it with reason, you miss the target!

Unassailable, huh? Well permit me to try to "assail" them... 1. Homosexual behavior, as well as sodomy and masturbation have been observed in social groups of every type of primate, from the smallest of monkeys to the greatest of the great apes, ie: man. The same also goes for other "human" behaviors like substance abuse. When fruit falls from a tree and ferments, some monkeys will partake of it moderately, some not at all and some to extreme... just like people with alcohol. Those primates have the same biological design and functionality as people... are they too "wagging their feeble members in the face of nature and screaming I defy you"? If you believe they are, then you are flying in the face of religious doctrine that states that we are something different from all other species... something special... created in god's image. If they too can "choose" to flip Mother Nature the bird and engage in "abominations", then they are no different than us. If you believe they are not willfully defying nature, then you are conceding that homosexuality is perfectly natural, as it occurs throughout nature. 2. With today's medical science, no man ever NEEDS to have intercourse with any woman ever again to ensure our survival. IVF has rendered natural conception a CHOICE. So by Mr. Kant's standards of morality, homosexuality COULD be practiced all the time, everywhere and by everyone without leading to the demise of our species if society deemed it appropriate and desirable... not that I would vote for such a measure because I like women. But then, nobody is suggesting outlawing heterosexual relationships, whereas religious zealots across the world persistently persecute gay people. 3. In order for sacred texts to be used as an argument, those texts must be considered sacred by all participants of a discussion. Otherwise, they're....

LondonLaker, your arguments are so strong and weighty, they are subject to break my pencil writing a retort. When you say that “animals are no different than us,” it is the one statement in your post that you have most correct. It is a Biblical doctrine that man was given dominion over the planet; and as a result of man’s fall, all creation was corrupted. As stated in the Bible, “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God (Rom.8:19-21). But as I am talking to a secular audience, I will leave that for another body of people. For homosexual apologists, the argument always comes back to nature, “Well, homosexuality is found in nature, so it must be okay,” or “You were born that way;” never mind the fact that the red lights and whistles don’t go off in the minds of many because of the scarcity of the behavior. The truth, however, is homosexuality in man and beast is about as rare as quarters in seat cushions when you are out of gas money. Despite the media attention given to homosexuals, a recent Gallup poll survey indicates that gays and lesbians only comprise between 2 and 4 percent of the U.S. population. Many professional sociologists think that it is even less than that. Does Nature have miscarriages? Absolutely. There are people born blind, deaf and worse. But nobody says �" except perhaps as a metaphysical platitude to make sense of the emotional pain �" “Oh, since you....

^ Well, my friend... since the vast majority of people in the world are born with skin colored various shades of brown, are you suggesting that I, as an alabaster-aberration, ought to be persecuted as a miscarriage of nature as gay people are? Or pitied and financially assisted in living with my terrible affliction as are the handicapped? Or perhaps you just advocate mandatory tanning sessions to bring me more in line with the statistical norm. After all, just because I was BORN white, that doesn't mean I should be encouraged to STAY white, right? If one is to respect scripture, one should respect ALL holy texts of every religion. I don't see Buddhists uniting together under the common cause of enforcing vegetarianism on America. If they did, I have no doubt that they would be met with a big, fat middle finger and likely a couple of nuclear warheads. Though I may disagree with many of their beliefs, their philosophy of PERSONAL responsibility and spirituality is, in my opinion, what makes their manner of worship far superior to any of the world's "big 3" religions. I'm not hearing about intra-Buddhism conflict on CNN... but maybe that's just the biased media's fault... like when they invented all those fake gay people. For the record, I do find the term "gay apologist" offensive. I am not apologizing for them, nor do I need to... time was, white supporters of the civil rights movement were called N-word apologists, but the fact is, without support from a segment of the majority, no minority would have ever escaped persecution. Well, I've said my piece. I never expected to convince you to my way of thinking, but I will leave you with this thought... Your views on this subject are going the way of the dinosaur. For the first time....

Zcheck, When you say, seek the truth, that is exactly what I am talking about. The truth. Let me give a few examples: The bible talks about adam and eve, right. Bam, we were here. It says god created us in his image (although actually as very wise man said, we created him in ours) that we were given dominian over the earth. This was made for us. Yet look at the FACTS. This planet is four billion years old. It tooks hundreds of millions of years for the first single cell life to appear. Hundreds of millions more for more complicated life to appear. The dinosaurs ruled for hundreds of millions of years. After they died off, many more tens of million of years passed before our first ancestors appeared. Now sit back for a while and try to get your mind around that length of time. So if the earth was made for us, if we are so special, why the wait? It doesn't add up. Not in any way shape or form. If we are so special, made in some gods image, if this was made for us, what was god doing all that time fooling around? Messing with Dinosaurs and other animal and our ape like primal ancestors? See? Then take Adam and Eve. Well, the historical record shows if there was an Adam and Eve, they were our very primitive, apelike ancestors. Not these talking people as we are today. They were more primitive animal than homo sapiens. Evolution is a fact. Its in the fossil record and in our own bodies. Why to you think we have a tail bone we no longer use? Have you heard about bacteria that change so resist penicillan? Evolution. Did you know DNA proves polar bears and Grizzly bears are very closely....

You know, SPQR, your ignorance, intellectual immaturity, and atheistic rudeness is palpable. You strike me as a kid who has picked up a few half-baked pieces of science in high school and you now want to use it to craft a complete worldview. My Bible tells me to "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" (Peter 3:15). But the truth is, it takes significantly more effort to craft a serious rebuttal than to pile up erroneous allegation, after erroneous allegation, after erroneous allegation as you have. So I'm not going to wear myself out trying.

But let me point out just one of your erroneous allegations simply to show how intellectually juvenile your scientific concepts are. You write, " If we are so special, made in some gods image, if this was made for us, what was god doing all that time fooling around? Messing with Dinosaurs and other animal and our ape like primal ancestors?" SPQR, physicists postulate that space/time came into existence with the big bang. Prior to the big bang, there was no time. Hence, the creator exists outside space/time as we perceive it. Religion has long held that past, present, and future are an ever present now to God.

SPQR, stop writing and go read and study (This is my last post).

SPQR no where. .. NO WHERE in the Bible is there written or quoted about how old the earth is. NO WHERE. Let me give you some truths: The essence of life DNA RNA proteins can not be made as it does not and can not exist outside of life or a living cell. It can not explode into existence. It can not evolve. It can not develop. So when scientists and science in their finite wisdom develop DNA protein and RNA out of nothing without replication then i might subscribe to the bang theory or evolution. You see my friend the story does not begin with evolution it begins way before then. And even if you say everything exploded out of nothing, nothing is something so where did the nothing come from? Secondly evolution does not end it Is an infinite ongoing process. A scientific FACT. if we evolved from tadpoles to lizards to gorillas to homo sapiens, why have we stopped evolving as humans? And what is the next step in our evolution? If this is it then the evolution theory is a fallacy because evolution by theory NEVER stops. Like you said even the common cold changed its strain this flu season. It is a convenient oversight in staying that we evolved from gorillas when in fact the chain says we came from tadpoles. So, what is the next step in the human evolution? Thirdly you speak of the Christians fear of death. There is a huge difference between the fear of death and the fear of dying. I have NO fear of death because death is the beginning of my eternity. ....

Lakedog, I said we should be civil. Right? We agreed to be, right? I know the facts bug you, but just because they do and I state them, don't insult me and call me names. Nor anyone else on this thread. This is the second time you couldn't help yourself and do that. I could have given you a warning the first time. This time you get it. If you find yourself in a future conversation you can't have without throwing insults, stay away from it. You talk about immaturity yet you are the one who starts with name calling when someone disagrees with you. If you don't like my points, refute them. Give some reasons why they are not valid. Don't insult me. You can do that without insulting me as you do. I know that physicists posulate there was no time before the big bang. And it is interesting you bring that point up. You know why? Because a physicist said, "And that creates a god problem. Because if there was no time, how did he have time to come into being? And how did he have time to create the big bang or do anything at all?" Then you go on say, Hence the creator exists out of time. What creator? Where do physicists say there was a creator? See, you just went back to my closet god. You just made him right up. And if there was no time before the big bang, where did god find the time to make the big bang or the universe? Where was time to make a god? And who made your god? And if there is a god, what makes you think he is not just a god of life? What makes you think he gives you an afterlife? You mean because you....

SPQR read my post again. You misread it, I said Science can tell us how.....it can't tell us why...The beauty of life is the pain never last, the rain always pass, the sun don't always shine. Cause when its gone i'm lonely, but when its there i'm fine. Believe in God like the sun up in the skies. You don't know why, but you know it will.

Jchrist,

I may have mistyped. But back to what should have been my point, science can and does tell us why and how in many instances. It does. And the more time goes on, the more we learn, the more cases science will tell us both the hows and the whys.

SPQR my friend One can find anything to support what they believe. You say some things evolve very slowly and some stop all together. Evolution by definition can never stop so maybe 2000 years from now we will evolve into something else. But the bottom line is this, what I know, I know that I know that I know. I accept that you can't fathom my faith because the Bible says that to an unbeliever, its wisdom is foolishness to him.

You will never understand WHY I have no fear of death. I'd rather be skinned alive than be on a plane going through turbulence because it scares me to delirium. There is nothing more frightening to me. But what comes after death brings me joy. I know that when I take my last breath on this earth I will INSTANTLY be in the presence of my Lord. As an unbeliever you believe that death is the end. As a Christian I KNOW that death is the beginning. Whether you think i believe that or not doesn't matter. I understand how you can make a statement concluding that anyone suffering could never praise God when in fact, it's the crux of our faith. .. in all things give thanks. Rejoice in the Lord Always. I know it's unfathomable and foolishness to you but that's ok. I'll say this to you with all sincerity. Contrary to what you say, Evolution never stops evolving so leave yourself the chance to evolve into something more than one who believes that he came from nothing and that there is nothing after death. Just for kicks, read the story of the prodigal son Because no matter what You say what You do or what You believe, You can always go back home. .. to your Lord. You may not believe that I have no fear of what comes after death, that's ok. I don't have any thing to prove I don't have to search i don't have questions I only have peace because I have certainty. If you do as well, be blessed.

SPQR,

I said that I would not write on the subject of God in this sports forum again. But I do realize that either there is a hunger among members of this site to know God or a desire to argue for arguments’ sake. I haven't yet decided which. For that cause, after napping today, I awoke inspired to offer you this proposal. Once per week, I will write an article pertaining to a particular issue of faith and science which will explore the subject based on some of the best ideas in human thought. The subjects will be gleaned from issues already posted in this thread. There are plenty of questions already tossed out to keep me busy for weeks. I will not name-call or write with sarcasm. I will post my article on this thread or any other forum on this site that you propose. Of course, after posting the article, you are welcome to attack it however you see fit.

Now, I do not expect to necessarily convince anyone of the Christian faith; for, after all, if a man rising from the dead won't convince people of truths, nothing that I think or say will. I do hope, however, to expose you to learning outside of your private ruminations and current limited understanding of science and faith. I am 58-years-old and have recently downsized my home, as all my children are grown and independent. My personal library is still boxed up; but where I can, I will offer you quotes, suggested readings, and web addresses for you to continue to explore ideas discussed.

If you are interested, SPQR, of course you will let me know and we can go from there. If not, no hard feelings -- you won't hear from me again.

Zcheck, I understand what you are saying. For you the bible is the word of god and as your quote says, for those who don't believe, its wisdom is foolishness to them. My point on the other side is this, while there is great wisdom in the bible, and I am referring a lot to the teachings of Jesus, there is also a lot in there that simply is not true. That is contradicted by fact and science. Things that don't meet either a factual or logical examination. And if this was the true, infallible word of god, it would pass all tests. I also have to say, and there is no offense intended, but that book was written by men, men who did not understand the history of the world, the universe or the nature of man nor even nature. They were men who had questions and also feared death. And just like the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians that Assyrians, the Babylonians and so many civilizations before them, they wrote stories to answer their questions. Stories not based on any fact, but just stories that they made up to explain man, nature, the world, and what happens after death. Just like the Aztecs and Mayans did on this continent. They made up these stories because they had nothing else to fall back on. So when the bible that was made way back then, says those who don't believe don't understand its wisdom, that is some man, living two thousand years ago, who had no conception of what we know now, telling me I don't understand that wisdom, which has been contradicted by science and fact and logic, based on what we now know. See, that guy was talking to his contemporaries, he had no conception of what we would know in 2013. Or 2113, or....

Lakedog, You said a man rising from the dead doesn't convince people. Of course you would mean me in that. But here is the problem, a man rising from dead would convince me. So would a parting of the Red Sea, or a world wide flood where a guy gets all the animals in the world in one boat. Or a mist that kills all the first born of a certain people who are oppressing others. But see, just your statement that some god existed out of time in our previous thread, why should I believe it because you say it? Show me a guy rise from the dead? Where is it? That goes back to the point I make over and over and over. You are taking these stories about all these miracles, including a guy rising from the dead and acting like it just happened and we all saw it. It's a story from over two thousand years ago, when the same guys who wrote about that thought the sun revolved around us, who thought the world was 4000 years old, who thought people who were mentally ill were possessed by demons, who thought a woman was cut from a mans rib. I mean I could write a 100 page book on all the stuff they believed back then that wasn't true. Because they didn't know anything. It goes back to my god in the closet. You wouldn't believe it. You would say, Randy, show me. Well the same here. Don't tell me cavemen said a guy rose from the dead and act like it is fact or say I refuse to believe it. Of course I don't believe it. Just like you wouldn't believe in my god from the closet, or the story of Medusa. Do you believe in Medusa?....

I didn't start this thread to be a religious debate, but I guess whenever you bring religion into any topic, it is bound to happen. The original idea I had was to point my discomfort with how some very rich people seem to think a god has a very special interest in their pampered, very perfect lives despite all the misery and horror going on in the world around them. Like I said, to me this shows a certain self involvement and also a very big detachment from the reality so many millions have going on. I could go on with this debate for as long as LTB is here. But it is not something I want to do, nor intended to do at all. Since it turned into a religious debate, finally into whether a god, and I guess especially a Christian god exists, I did have to make a few of the many points that make me feel as I do. I was raised a Christian and my Mom took to church every Sunday. But in my early teens, some of the things I talked about in this thread and many others I didn't began to make me question then realize that it did not add up or make any logical sense at all in myriad ways, and that for me, it did not pass any real scrutiny in so many ways and so many levels. A few of those I talked about here. Many I did not. I also know this topic is very personal with people, for many reasons. I want to stress, it was not my intent to attack religion, but if I had to give my side, explain why I believe as I do, or more accurately, why I don't believe, I had to give some....