The 2013 NFL Football Thread.

Well, the cuts have been made, the teams are locked and loaded and for us NFL fans, a great time of the year is about to begin. One of the biggest things that happened is that Tim Tebow was cut by the Pats. No big surprise, since he can't play a lick. Think of it as a mercy killing more than anything else. But boy, the poor media, which built him for no good reason at all will surely miss him. I surely won't. A big story will be the triumverate of great rookie QBs from last year, RG3, Andrew Luck and Robert Wilson. RG3 and Luck come in with high expecations. Wilson with none. All three just crushed it. Will they continue to grow and advance as players in year two? Or will some regress as defenses adjust to them? How ill RG3 perform after his serious knee surgery? Sports Illustrateds Peter King picks the Pats to beat Seattle in the Superbowl. For me, this just shows that even if you have been around football as long as King has, even if you have just launched this massive new web site devoted to football, as King has, it still doesn't mean you can learn, which I don't think King has. Will the Pats make it to the big show, minus murderer Hernandez and having their other star tight end, Gronk, hurt during the first part of the year? Then throw in the fact that Bradys main stay for years, Wes Welker has defected to rival Denver. You can never underestimate Brady and the AFC seems weak, so it could still happen. I wouldn't count on it though. And King still has not learned this immutable fact, when the Pats play a physical team, like the one that comes out of the NFC this....

Why do we neg vote an NFL thread?  Is it because SPQR started the thread?  Is it because some just like hitting the neg button?

   No offense to anyone, but of all the upgrades and changes that have gone on since my arrival here at LTB, this +/- for a thread is the worst idea, especially when it can lead to a member not being able to start a thread for a week due to a -15 or whatever the bar has been set at...

  So, when and if we reach a -15 on this thread, the rest of LTB is punished because now SPQR won't be able to start his own thread until after his weeklong punishment is up...

Sorry to hijack the thread with this, but I'm really tired of these people with agendas who have no opinion to offer, yet down vote the thread...

GROW UP

Baptist,

I don't like the -15 vote rule. I expressed my concerns to Dave when he put it in. Sometimes, the most hated threads written are the most accurate and insightful. Sometimes, the truth hurts. Why should a member be punished for it, in umbrella fashion?

And yes, I'm sure I got the neg rep because of who I am. Some people here really love to carry a grudge. Makes me wonder what they are like in real life, lol.

Unfortunately for them, since I am a mod, they can neg rep any thread I make out the wazoo, and I can still post as many threads as I desire!!

So you see, for those who hate SPQR because I am SPQR, there is no stopping me; not in debate, not in form, not in brilliant content, not in logic, not in expertise, nor in the number of threads I wish to create to stimulate great conversation or to place discussion in a realm of reality, as opposed to fantasy some fans prefer.

So for those who want to neg me, just because I am me, no matter the topic or what I write, neg away, boys and girls, it matters not a bit. It never has. The only result you can get by negging me so often is carpal tunnel syndrome.

And now, lets get those football games rolling!!!

Randrew

Good enough...

I'm glad it doesn't stop a mod from posting... Whether or not people agree with you on certain topics or threads created, almost everyone to a man must admit you're one of the most skilled, if not the most skilled writer(s) on this site...

I just don't get why somebody would neg a thread like this... If you don't get into football, that's fine, don't read the damn post.. There's no need to neg vote...

I can only imagine the pure joy that person must feel upon clicking their little mouse on the neg icon....

As for football, um yeah! Go Dodgers????? LOL.....

Looks like many pundits have my Raiders pegged for yet another sub 6 win season... Some have even stated making a run at history, joining Detroit in NFL infamy with an 0-16 season...

As inept as they have been, you NEVER heard an Al Davis team having a zero win prognostication..

Looks like you get your wish Randrew (heeeheee), Terrelle Pryor it is, allegedly...

Baptist, Yes, I'm sure there is a hollow sense of joy when the negs are given. But I would imagine in the end, its akin to having sex with one of those rubber blow up dolls, the effort goes in, they sweat and grunt and work, in but in the end, the result is very unsatisfying compared to the real thing. In their particular case, the real thing would be being right for a change, instead of wrong as most always seems to be the case. So in the end, its just reduced to neg reps, the metaphorical next go round with the staid, unmovinging, uncaring, unresponsive, unemotional, ultimately empty rubber dolly. As to the football: If I were a Raiders fan, I would be rooting to lose and get that top pick. And if it takes 0-16 to to it, so be it. We both know in the NFL, you get those gamebreakers, those great players that change a team, predominantly with high picks. Not all great players go fast, but most do. We have talked about this subject before and you know how I feel. For a team to have title hopes, that great QB must be there as the first prerequist. If you don't have one, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the team is, as witnessed by a decade of futility of GREAT Steeler teams under the unstable helm of Odonnel and Stewart. Hopefully, if you do have a really bad year, a great QB will be available in this years draft for you. Once you procure him, then the hardest part is over. The last time the Raiders won the superbowl, you had the great Stabler and the great Jim Plunket under center. That is no coincidence. Just like the last two QBs who won for the Steelers....

Randrew

yes, I read that article... I had seen it the day before you posted the link, or earlier that day, but thanks anyway.

Denver vs Baltimore tonight! WooWoo!!

Here are my predictions for the divisions:

NFC East: A close, hard pick of Washington over the Giants. But if NY rebounds and takes it, it would not surprise me. How will RG3 do his sophomore year? How will he respond to his knee injury?

NFC North: Green Bay in an easy pick.

NFC South: Atlanta in a close pick of the Saints. Atlanta is just loaded on offense. Can Ryan step up and become a killer elite to go with nickname, Matty Ice and take them to the promised land.

NFC West: Frisco in a close one over Seattle. Perhaps the two best teams in football. I just like the bigger Kapernick over the tiny Wilson. Both will have to deal with the adjustments teams will make on them after their first years as starters. I think the bigger Kapernick will make the adjustments better because he can see the field better.

AFC North: Baltimore is my pick. Not on the Cinci bandwagon. Don't like their coach, don't like how they do on the road, not really sold on their QB, especially compared to superbowl MVP Flacco.

AFC East: New England, easy, in the worst division football.

AFC South: Houston over Indy, despite the brilliance of QB Andrew Luck. Houston is stronger on both sides of the ball, way better on defense. Schaub is also a good QB, not elite, but still pretty good.

AFC West: Denver, of course. But the one team in this weak division that may bear watching is KC, if Alex Smith plays as well as he did in the preseason and with Frisco the last two years. This team is loaded, especially on defense with high draft picks, high impact young players.

If Randy says ANYTHING whatsoever positive about the Pittsburgh Steelers this season I will NEG this thread faster than you can blink! Ha!

Okay...so one half does not a season make, but some of you guys may have been correct about the quantum leap the Chiefs might make under Reid and the QB work of Alex Smith. They've looked very good in the 1st half, albeit against the somewhat hapless Jags. Blaine Gabbert can't win for losing. He looks like he's still playing for Mizzou against the Cornhuskers and getting beat up all over the place. Serves the Tiger right.

I can't wait for the Chiefs to prove they're legitimate so I can quit pretending to be humble. hehe

BTW, I had to laugh that even Randy's thread on the main board regarding a tech question got negged. Go frickin' figure. smh. It is sad that it makes it all pretty much meaningless.

Dan, The Steelers are in a world of hurt. The offense is even worse than before. I have a few lines of thought on it. I think the talent is way overrated by the local media and fans. The strangest thing is the O line. All number one and number two draft picks, except for Ramon Foster. Yet they cannot pass block or run block!! Why? Pouncy is the starting center in the pro bowl (though his season ending injury just took care of that, lol). DeCastro, last years number one looks like a beast. Yet the line can do nothing. Its the worst in football. I look at our running backs and see NOTHING. Isaac Redman, blah. A dime a dozen. Howlings suffered a season ending injury too, but I never thought he was nothing. Our number two draft pick this year, Bell, kicked *ss in camp but missed the game because of injury. They say his is special, but we shall see. WR'S? Nothing. Brown is the only good one. The rest, like our running backs, a dime a dozen. So for me, this goes to our FO and GM Kevin Colbert. He was the one who pulled the trigger on those players in the draft, including two first round busts on defense, Ziggy Hood and Cam Heyward in the last five years. So for me, I think this team just has a massive talent deficiency that is not talked about by the Pittsburgh writers who grossly overrate guys that are here. There is also another school of thought that I think applies. I heard a professional gambler on a national radio show say before this weeks games that he was going to bet against the Steelers every game no matter the spot, because he thinks Tomlin is one of the most disorganized....

Randy, The Chiefs got my attention yesterday for sure. They looked so fast and so strong and so focused for the 1st game of the year. I was surprised to hear that the Jags didn't make it into Chiefs territory until the 4th quarter. That's almost unheard of, especially for the Chiefs of recent years. It made me ask myself "who is THIS team?" lol. They have some weapons on both sides of the ball for sure. John tried to tell me that I'll be surprised how big a difference Andy Reid's coaching will make with the young Chiefs. So far I bow to his experience and intuition on the matter. Happily so! I saw some signs of immaturity too, but maybe they'll learn what it takes to win consistently. We'll see. When I wrote my little joke above about the Steelers and negging this thread I had no idea how much they were struggling in their game. I was surprised to see it. Will the Steelers chop off Haley if things go completely south with the offense? I wouldn't doubt it. I can't lie here. Watching some of the Steelers game (when I had moments to switch over) they kind of made me feel my own mortality too. My...how the mighty have fallen. But...it was only one game. We have all seen so many dramatic turnarounds that I will resist the temptation of reading too much into anything that's done in the 1st week of the season. Pats escaped. Barely, barely, barely escaped. Does that mean anything? I'm not sure. TBH, they almost always struggle vs. the Bills. It's one of those oddities of rivalry games. The Chowboys (so NOT a fan here) were very fortunate to escape with a "W" over the Giants. Big win for them, and perhaps for overcoming....

Dan,

Haley will be the first one sacrificed. But now this will make two offensive coordinators to go because of this mess, Bruce Arians of course being the first last year. For me, you can't keep blaming offensive coordinators. You have to start looking at two people higher up, the head coach, Tomlin, and the GM who is supposed to bring in talent, Colbert. But the Steelers being the Steelers, it will take a few more years of playing like this before Tomlin and Colbert are in trouble.

Pats did escape. I was glad though as i had some bucks on them with the money line at -460. But I don't see them as a real threat to win any championship.

QB has held you back a long time. Now you have a pretty good one. John is right too, Reid is a big improvement over a clowns like Crennel and the others you had screwing around with your team.

If someone wants to see what top level football looks like, the heights you have to attain to be real contender, you saw it in the Frisco-Green Bay game. That was football at a very high level.

I would say its kind of scary to think Frisco is without two of their best wide receivers, Mario Manningham and Michael Crabtree. They could well be unstoppable when they return. Kaepernick looks like a budding god.

If I could take any QB in the league, he is the guy.

^ I can't help but think you're right about the Niners. When you combine both great talent AND great coaching......yikes! I'm still not convinced that SF didn't have the best team in the league last year, let alone this one.

Dan, I bet overseas, taking the NFC -1 over the AFC in this coming superbowl. So that means I get SF, GB, Seattle!! Not to mention Atlanta and New Orleans. The only team I have to worry about even the slightest, in my humble opinion is Denver. I like this bet A LOT, lol. Unless Frisco gets hammered with injuries, I really don't see them being stopped. You know, they have this huge advantage right now over other top teams and this is it: Kaepernick is a star QB right now, but he is getting a small salary because of where he was drafted. As opposed to the other teams with star QBs who are paying dearly for it. So Frisco can use all that money, like around 130 million, to pay top players at many other positions...including quality backups. The other teams with top QBs, hobbled with their salaries under the cap, cannot do it like Frisco can. This means, until Kaepernicks contract is up in three years, they will have this very substantial advantage over the other teams with top QBs. That is some advantage. There is of course the possibility that if they win the superbowl, they will renegociate his contract. But even then, it still won't be like a Manning or Brees, or Ryan or Ben yet. They are really sitting a very nice position. This is something you never hear the TV talking heads or writers mentioning. They should. The impressive thing about that young man is, Green Bay was determined to stop him from executing the read option and killing them with his runs, like he did in that playoff game last year. The good news, they succeeded. The bad news, Kaepernick just stood in the pocket and passed for over 400 yards and three touchdowns without a....

Ponder is inconsistent but one thing I can say is that his line did him absolutely no favors. People will always lookup at him being a reach in the draft but for 2 of his 3 years the guy had no receivers except Harvin.

When I was looking at this Detroit game I was amazed at how guys were getting pushed around by Detroit's line and when Ponder dropped back the seems to be a guy in his face every throw. These are things that people who don't see the games don't get to see. They see that he had 3 interceptions and 1 touchdown. I'm not trying to say Ponder is some great QB on a pour team but in reality when I've watched these games, the guy doesn't have a lot of time. Last season he had no receivers this year that's not an excuse, he has some good receivers but I didn't expect the O-line to get manhandled the way they did. After Peterson's 78 years run, his next 17 carries netted in something like 15 yards including three or for losses in yards. The line wasn't very good on Sunday and it can be more of the same against Chicago unless they start to block.

The Niners were absolutely robbed of that Super Bowl last year. The way that corner mauled Crabtree and it wasn't called was ridiculous. The guy didn't even look back to play the ball which is always called pass interference. The Ravens defense was tired and I really didn't see them stopping the Niners on four tries at the one yard line. I was upset because I hate to see a team lose like that, I really do.

Agree Gemelle. Plus I thought they were the better team even without the piss poor ending by the officials. Typically I agree with Randy's axiom that you never blame a loss on officiating, but we all know that sometimes it's rather obvious when it boils down to a call like that. I don't believe in expanding the use of replay for reviewing penalty or non-penalty calls, but sometimes they're just as important as replays regarding fumbles or whether a guy crossed the goal line or caught a pass. You know? I guess that's just the breaks of the game.

I understand AP is still looking great. Man I hope the Vikings don't completely wear that guy out in the next season or two. He's a modern day marvel.

They definitely were the better team. Like yourself and Randy I don't like looking at the officials but that lack of a call was ridiculous. If that was a different quarter they would have called that. I can understand not calling something questionable but a corner grabbing and not even looking at the ball was obvious.

Adrian didn't look as great as his stats from Sunday would suggest. He had one 78 yard run and his other 17 carries got him all the wAy up to 93 yards. Detroit's line was in the backfield all game. Adrian who hits the hole hard was tackled for losses about four to five times and had no gains at least three times. The O-line was terrible against Detroit, they were man-handled, allowed the pocket to collapse quite often and Suh and Fairley killed it. If Suh and Fairley keep playing like that, Detriit's D will be a monster. It will remind people of the days when Minnesota had Keith Millard and Henry Thomas or more recently Kevin Williams and Pat Williams. No one could run on Minnesota for a few years until they both aged. The pocket collapsed quite often but the corners were terrible. I think that Detroit's two DT's are going to be extremely tough going by what I witnessed on Sunday or either Minnesota's guards are really crappy so far.

I was surprised about Kansas City this past Sunday. I totally forgot they picked up Smith as QB and Jamaal usually looks good, he seems to be a back usually under the radar.

Gem, I certainly sympathize about the O line, for both you as a fan and AP and also Ponder. Believe me when I say I know all about bad lines as the Steelers have had about the worst in football for the last five years and counting. As frustrated as I can get with Ben at times, I still marvel at what he has been able to do behind this sieve. I would love to see Ben get a chance behind a brick wall like Brady has had pretty much his whole career and Kaepernick has. But my concerns about Ponder run deeper and longer. I just didn't see any pedigree of physical skills or performance in college that warrented such a high pick. I thought it was a pretty big reach. And by now, even with the o line problems and other issues, I would expect a few of those oh wow games from him where you think, "Oh wow, what a great game he had. That was top shelf number one pick stuff." You know, where he shows signs of being a QB worth that pick. For me, the fact that he has not produced any of those oh wow moments is not a good sign. As a comparison, even with a line that can't run block or pass block, and a lack of offense talent, for years, Ben has produced so many Oh wow games. He just does it on his own skill and ability despite the problems. That is some of what I look for in a top level QB to show he was worth that price. I will say this in Ponders defense. Jim Plunkett was a terrific QB whose first two thirds of his career were destroyed by playing behind an aweful O line. He looked like....

No one will ever here me say Ponder is a top flight QB. I just know what I see right there on the field, most QB's under pressure will falter to some degree. Season before last I was upset that the Vikings beat the Skins which could have propelled them to one of the top two picks. Why? I wanted RG3 over Ponder. I saw the accuracy I saw the athleticism, the poise and an awesome deep accurate ball. There are a few things that coma into play with Ponder, the Vikes are a running team and those teams usually aren't great at passing due to the situations coaches have them in, specifically in Minnesota they have no creativity when it comes to passing. They're damn near running highschool pass plays. Even when Ponder has a clean pocket no receiver is open like in GB, SF or NO. Why? I can tell you what Minnesota's receivers are running. One guy runs a fly, another one will run an in or an out and the TE will run the middle. Wen they do add captivity from time to time receivers actually end up being open. Honestly, if Frazier was let go it wouldn't even bother me. I don't feel a team can win playing it safe, playing run control and ball position is a thing of the past.

There is a reason why the read-option is so popular. It utilizes the DE and him not knowing what to do but it opens up the passing seams for easier completions as well, its great and it almost looks like its unguardable like the pick and roll. Unlike the wildcat, I believe the read-option will be here for a little bit with these mobile quarterbacks. If minty was smart they would use it. Why? The DE will go towards Peterson 12 out of 10 times. I'm just getting irritated just talking about the stuff I see out there. ponder isn't the answer, I know that but I can accept the fact that everyone won't have a top tier QB. The Steelers use to have one, now they don't. Just a thought.

Gem, The Steelers and Ben are a very interesting case. When he won that second superbowl, I thought he was on the cusp of being the best QB in ball, simply because he could certain things, make certain plays even Manning and Brady couldn't. But he never took that last step up to grab that spot. Some of it fall on him. A large part also falls on the FO. Watching the Steelers and other teams, it is apparent that we are about as bereft of offensive talent as any team in the league. As an example, if I asked myself, if I were starting a team, which Steeler running backs would I be glad to have, the answer is none. The same goes if I asked that question about wide receivers. None, zero, zip. The best we have is Brown, who I would call adequate. When you hear about teams that just don't have playmakers, like the Jets, I can tell you, we are right up with them or even worse. We just don't have any. Now we drafted this running back Bell in the second round. They say he kicked *ss in camp and was going to be the starter. He is hurt now, lol. So we will see. Also drafted the wide receiver Wheaton in the third round, supposed to be good. But he hasn't beaten out any of our lousy wide receivers so far, so we will see. I can tell you, without Ben the last few years, this team would have had some 4-12 seasons. He is the offense. I mean literally, the entire offense. There is nobody else. In the end, I blame the FO and GM Kevin Colbert for this situation. His drafts the last five years have been horrible. I remember just like four years ago....

Well, our coaching is a little different. Our team doesn't seem sloppy, they just seem a little vanilla. You know how during preseason a team doesn't want to show their offense or defense until the regular season? Well, I think Frazier doesn't want to show his offense or defense until the post season at times. I'm absolutely jealous of the Defensive coordinators who are allowed to do what they do put their blueprint on the game. I’ve been seeing these same uncreative blitzes out of Minnesota since Childress was screwing up. Maybe I’m nitpicking but when I look at the best teams in the league I see creativity, I see chances being taken and so forth.

I’m concerned that the identity of the Vikings just won’t fit in today’s NFL. The only way you can be this ball control running team in this league is if you have a Ravens 2000 or Bears 1985 defense. I’m hoping the Vikings look better this Sunday but I’m not holding my breath. I just hate to see a team be middle of the pack when they will need a QB most likely and some other skill positions filled.

Gem,

I don't think you are nitpicking. I have the same problem with the Steelers, only on offense. It seems for the last couple of years they want to return to 70's style running. What really scared me even more was two weeks ago Coach Tomlin was asked about the read option and other new offenses now being utilized and he says they are fads that will go away, saying it was like the wildcat. I don't think so. I thought the wildcat was joke, a total gimmick for teams without a good QB. I had no doubt it would quickly leave.

I see these new whole offensive structures as something else entirely. I think they are just the next evolution of smart offense using these these very liberal passing rules now in place. Instead of a fad, I think it is smart coaches doing smart things. The funny part is in the same article, our D coordinator D*ck Lebeau said he doesn't think its a fad that will go away.

I have to admit, Tomlins very definative, dissmissive answer scared me.

I also noticed some talking heads are saying Chip Kellys no huddle will fail because the team will become exhausted eventually. But John Clayton this morning said Brady has been running a variation of that no huddle for three years now and they have been doing pretty well with it and not collapsing from exhaustion. I thought that was a valid point.

I honestly fear that the new style of football, with these offenses is just passing the Steelers brain trust behind. There was even a local radio host the other day who devoted his whole show to that very question.

SPQR: Here is what Tomlin and Frazier have in common. They both were under one of the worst coaches I've seen, Brad Childress. Childress was so rigid, he just didn't want to explore anything else and Frazier isn't no where near that bad but his philosophy is old school and it will leave the Vikings behind. A guy like Patterson would probably flourish if he was given the ball in a spread offense.

I don't think the read-option is going anywhere, it's great and it really messes with an over aggressive DE. It takes that aggression away and opens up the passing game a little. It's nothing like the wildcat or any other gimmick type offense. The one thing it has going for it is I don't think the formation changes so you don't know what the heck a QB is going to do.

It looks like right now Chip Kelly seems to be the Mike D'Antoni of football. He can slow it down a little bit if issues occur but I know some defense will get tired and then they don't have enough time to switch out players either.

I feel that the Vikings will get passed by as well trying to be this power team. Just like the NBA has become more of a fastbreaking league, so has the NFL.

Today on my 35th birthday, Terrelle Pryor will give me a very nice birthday gift, and he'll give himself his first victory as a starting NFL QB... Hopefully it is the first of many for this kid...

By all accounts he is a diligent worker, and his hard work will ultimately pay off... There will no doubt be growing pains.. However, unlike the party animal QB's in recent drafts, like Vince Young, Leinart, jaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez, and others, this kid has worked on his game nonstop, and seems to be a natural leader. It's always a good sign when a young man like Pryor spends his off time trying to get better instead of clubbing it up, like some others.... How can one not root for the kid????

Here's to the first of Many

Baptist,

It will be interesting to see how Pryor does. There was a rather lengthy article about him here a few weeks ago, since he went to HS here and was so dominant he became a real cause celeb here. In it, he said he realized last year with the Raiders that he never learned how to throw a football so he went to some throwing guru in the off season to learn how to do it.

There are three things a good QB must do, one read defenses, two be able to see the field and three, be accurate enough to get the ball right where it has to be and on time. As you can see, the vast majority of QBs in the league fail at one or more these abilities, thus the paucity of top level QBs. If Pryor can attain those three abilities, no small task, then he will be your guy.

As for the ablity to run? For me, that is just icing on the cake. You have had great running QBS, like Bradshaw, Montana, Steve Young, Elway and others. You have also had great statues like Brady, Manning and Fouts and Marino. I'd take any of those guys as my QB. The ability to run is a nice added dimension, but if you can't pass, its really just fools gold, like with Kordel Stewart and Mike Vick.

Anyway, he and Raiders gave you a nice birthday present. It didn't take too long for you to get that first win of the season.

Randrew

i bet it's gonna take a little longer to get the 2nd W though...

I'm not expecting much... We have a patchwork O-Line, you know something about that, avg at best WR's and a QB who has made 3 NFL starts... I just want to see Pryor get better... Would be nice to see him with a decent WR or 2, but we don't have one... Like I said up-thread, the guy is solely focused on getting himself better as a player, and that's a great positive in this day and age...

Baptist, I see you guys will be playing..um...Denver next week. I guess that is about as hard a test as you can find in the AFC. I'm actually looking at that game as part of a seven point three game tease to bet that has really caught my eye. I took the gamblers advice and took Cinci this week against my Steelers so it was a nice win. So far he is 2-0 on his bet against the Steelers all year method. I will probably ride that as well for a while and see how it plays out. Chicago is minus two this week against the Steelers. I think this spot is low. I would make it around five. The big game this week was Seattle vs Frisco. It wasn't much of a game. Seattle just bullied them around. With that defense and a crowd that never stops screaming the whole game, does any team in the league have stronger home field advantage than Seattle? Their defense is just terrific. They have the best defensive backfield in football and an improved pass rush. Frisco couldn't throw or run against them. It was a tour de force of old style, defensive, physical, shut down ball. Very impressive. But when you have two powerful teams in the same division, that is usually how it goes home and away. I expect Frisco to return the favor at their stadium. One mention of concern if I were a a Seattle fan. The talented but so tiny QB Wilson did not look too hot. What was alarming is that he really was only effective passing when he left the pocket. And that is trouble. If you can't see over the lineman and be effective from the pocket, it really cuts down on your ability as a QB. Its....

Randrew

WOW! Three 1-1 teams in the top 10 and not one of them is my Oakland Raiders??? There goes your fricking credibility.... LOL...

Perhaps in order to get my Raiders in the rankings, I need to fire up the bottom five..

Anyway, I read a stat that shocked the sh!t out of me this morning... Terrelle Pryor has an 82.8% completion % when throwing ball in 2.5 secs or less (after snap of course) and only 53% longer than 2.5secs...

I guess that's good and bad in a way.. It lends credence to the popular belief that Pryor can't read a defensive thoroughly by way of going through his progressions (note: our receivers suck). However, those who said he can't run a timing based offense are being proven wrong, albeit this is a very small sample of course. What really has p!ssed me off thus far is the constant rolling or booting to his right.. Obviously he isn't calling the plays, but by rolling him out on almost all passing plays, it's taking away half the field, and when you're only using half the field, it's more clustered and much harder to find open guys... No doubt some of the play calling is based on the patchwork O-Line, but they've been better than expected in all honesty.

I feel, if you're going to give the kid the job, give the kid the job... Don't limit him to half the field...

I would love to hear your opinion of how you believe a young QB should be handled at this point (going into his 4th career NFL start)... Would you coddle him? Would you let him loose in all facets, regardless of end result.. i.e. ints, W-L record..

Realistically the Raiders aren't going anywhere this season, the Mules and dan's fry Chefs are clearly much better teams... So knowing this I say let the guy loose with the entire offense, and if he's half the worker and student of the game he is professed to be, the positive results should soon follow.. At least that's my belief...

Baptist,

You certainly have broken down Pryor pretty well.

I agree with you about a young QB. Give it all to him. Let him face and do everything. Its the hardest position on the team. What is point of coddling or giving half responsibility. If the guy is the real deal, he has to do it all.

I remember guys like Brady, Favre, Bradshaw, Marino, Montana, Manning, Elway, Ben and others getting thrown in the fire and things turned out pretty good for them. In fact, Elways first pro game was against the Steelers, in Pittsburgh. I watched it. It got ugly. He looked horrible. Lost, confused and horrible. It was the beginning of his learning process. The very first of many, many steps a QB will take. In the end, Elway did ok for himself in his career. Even beat the Steelers once or twice, lol. So did those other gents.

Throw em in, Baptist, let em learn and do it all. The cream will learn, master it and rise to the top. The ones who can't will find their fated nitch in the lower rungs.

Interesting game tonight. Andy Reid returns to Philly to pit his new, very good KC defense against Chip Kellys high octane offense. Which one will prevail? Or will Phillys own shaky defense be the key?

If KC wins tonight, in Philly, wow, what a start for them.

Randrew I agree with what you said... Thanks for answering.. John Elway 'eh??? I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but I'd be willing to bet of all the QB's you mentioned above, horse-face Elway is probably the most overrated of the bunch... He was extraordinary at winning games though.. His 2 Super Bowls and career record as a starter speak for themselves... A guy I work with is a Mules fan, and he speaks of Elway as some god... So I remember we were discussing Manning coming to Dungver, and he believed Elway was the....

Baptist, Off work today? Its rare to get an afternoon answer. Boy that Elway Manning thing is tough. First off, I bet that Denver fan does think Elway is far better and a god, lol. Such is the way of it with fans and their sports heroes and Elway will probably be the forever hero there, at least till long after his generation of fans dies off. Back when Elway played, the rules were not as liberal as they are now for the offense. Nor did they pass as much. Back then, it was conventional wisdom that you had to be able to run the ball. Now pretty much nobody buys that any longer, well except my Steelers....heheheheheheh. So Manning and all these QBs have these very liberal passing rules and the opportunity to exploit them like Elway and others who came before could not. As an example, I can just imagine what a Terry Bradshaw or a Joe Montana or say your own Kenny Stabler would have done with today's rules and carte blanche to throw, throw, throw. Elway was more erratic that Manning. He was not as accurate. But he could really move and make plays, kind of like Ben did back when he had a good team. He was also a very good pressure QB. Manning is a machine. Almost not human in his ability to be precise and effective. Sometimes watching him, you almost feel like you are watching an automation, not a human QB. You know what I mean? The one thing that dogs Manning is the one superbowl win. With all his greatness and terrific teams he played on, why just the one win? The fact that he melted down and threw some pretty bad pics in playoff games is part and parcel to that problem. Was it all his fault or are his....

Randrew

Yes, got the day off today and yesterday too... I had to go for an MRI yesterday.. My L4, L5, and S1 disks in my lower back are all fukced up...

That is the greatest close-up of John Elway I've ever seen.... Perhaps his hall of fame bust should be redone..

As for Manning, don't forget, he's played in this era in which the AFC has had some damn good teams.. Pitt, Balt, Oakland was good when Manning was starting out, NE.... I'm sure Elway had to play equally good or great teams though too...

I absolutely agree that manning does look like a damn machine... One thing about him, as great as he is, he seems to be a nervous S.O.B. in the pocket... Watch his feet.. He reminds me of Pau Gasol with the wild gyrations... As weird as he looks at times, Manning is simply great IMO... Now, I have not any %'s to back me up here, but going by my eye, I have NEVER seen a QB as accurate as he with the long ball... His ability to put the ball in a perfect spot and hit his receivers in stride is something I've always been in awe about....

Baptist,

Sorry about the contuation of your back troubles. I'm sure the next step will be the recommended surgery, lol. Will you take it?

Yes, I liked the Elway pic, even down to the hair over his eye. I think its one of his more flattering pics and certainly should have been used for his hall of fame bust.

He does look nervous, but I doubt he is as nervous as the defenses that have to try stop him, lol. He is great, Baptist and his completion percentage is sick. He is the master of the long ball too. It is one of the many reasons why he is so special. I watch a really terrific QB like Ben for years. But then I watch Manning and think, Man, Ben ain't this guy. That Is how spectacular Manning is when he just dwarfs a QB of Bens calibure.

Interesting to note that Denver has now lost its center and just this week, their left tackle for the season. The guy on the radio said this will predicate some faster throwns on Mannings part now. We shall see.

Since I have bet on the NFC to win the superbowl, Ill take any injury possible to Denver, hopefully one to Manning, lol, as they are the only threat to my bringing home the bacon.

Randrew

As I told you before, they wanted to do surgery some 11 years ago when I was 24... I refused... I will refuse it again too... What's weird is I can do anything I want to do physically, but stand, sit, or lie in the same spot for a long duration.. That's when I tighten up and have several days of extreme pain and numbness down my leg...

I'm glad you have finally gotten into the offshore betting again... As you know, me and my Bro bet every sunday.. We lost week 1 because stupid me took NE in every bet we made.. We hit a couple parlays last week so we're already up over 180$.. We only put 100$ in... On monday, i went on to look at the Pit/Cin game.. I noticed the NYG/Car game had NYG +1.5, so immediately I straight bet that for 100$.. I scroll down and see Mia/ATL as a pick 'em, and I jumped all over that too for 100$... The spot on the Giants is down to 1, and ATL is now a +1... I did make my wager on the Cin/pit game and lost.. We took cinci -6.5 and over 41... It was my idea to take the over, and a stupid idea at that.. I called my brother before kickoff and told him he should've talked me out of the over.. I didn't give it much thought until after the bet was placed. When I started thinking of needing at least 25pts from cinci and at least 17 from Pit in order to win the bet, I knew we were doomed.... It's a learning process for sure Randrew... Plus it adds a little fun to every Sunday, you know?

Well Baptist, then your solution is very easy. Just don't stand, sit or lie down.

As for my offshore thing, lol. I was pretty much done with that Baptist but then something happened. I saw the Miami Heat were slightly more than even to win the NBA title. Well, I kind of popped a chub when I saw that, lol. I was like, am I really going to turn down free monies? The logical answer was no so I whipped out the old Mastercard and sent over a nice amount to make that bet.

After I won, I brought the pinciple home and decided to go back into the fray with my ill gotten gains that I left there.

Not sure how it will work out but hey, I'm playing with their money.

I kind of liked that guy who said bet against the Steelers every week so I will. Not just for the reasons he gave, but also because they just lack any offensive talent. I think the odds makers are slow to realize what is going on there. That spot with Chicago is low even after the evidence of the first two games.

Anyway Baptist, this week I have Chi - 2 and I have incorporated your own Raiders in a three game ten point tease. Yes, ten points. Does this show a certain lack of confidence? lol. Maybe. My picks on that tease are Denver - 4.5 over your Raiders. GB + 7.5 over Cinci (which I still feel a little nervous about) and the 49ers even over Indy. Actually, I think I will put a straight bet down on the 49ers tonight. I just look for them to be a house on fire after that blowout loss to Seattle. I just can't see the flawed Colts doing that long trip out west, then staying with such a great team that will be playing with something to prove.

I would be very leery about NE Baptist. Their offense, at least right now, is a far cry from yester year. I took them on a the money line two weeks ago but had to bet at a rate of 46 dollars for every ten to win. And they barely won that game for me.

Yes Baptist, it is a learning process. But why don't I ever learn???

SPQR: I've never heard you refer to Brees as tiny and he's 6'0" tall. Brees is one of the best QB's in the league. Yet you like to bring up Wilson's size and act like he can't see over a lineman at 5'11". You failed to mention in your assessment that SF's defense was getting to Wilson pretty easily, Aldon Smith would have broke Derrick Thomas' sack record if they didn't move Wilson around.

The towering Kaepernick looked bad in and out the pocket but you credit Seattle's defense. SF played great defense but they tired because the 6'4" demi-god Colineus, son of Zeus couldn't muster up over 82 yards through 3 quarters and he completed 16 passes, 3 to the other team. Both Wilson and Kaepernik weren't at their best yet Kaepernik had the clear height advantage so he can see over these pesky O-lineman and their redwood-height.

The Vikings won't be winless going to London. The tanking Browns traded their RB and they promoted their third stringer over their second stringer. It will take the Browns defense to win the game.

Nice win for my Chiefs in Philly earlier tonight, particularly on short rest. But if anyone watched the game, I'd be the first to admit that they will eventually have to be much more proficient on offense. Don't get me wrong. It's nice to be 3-0 and being on the upswing. But for now the Chiefs are winning primarily in the old Marty Schottenheimer mode of good defense, creating turnovers, and simply making less mistakes than the other guys. Oddly enough, you can win a lot of games that way, but it won't get you ready for the ultimate prize. I'll cut them some slack for having their first 3 tight ends out of the lineup, but I'm not sure how deep the impact of that was.

Should Chip Kelly have stayed at Oregon? Philly fans seem like they're not ready to be patient for long. I think they'd rather have Reid back.

Gem,

Brees is six foot. For me, that is pretty much on the cusp of what I would find remotely acceptable.

I had doubts about him coming out of college because of his height. He has put those to bed, lol.

Wilson has been actually measured at 5 foot 9, at least if the articles I have read are true. That is a big difference. No disrespect to Wilson, but I don't really want a 5 foot nine QB on my team if I can have a bigger, good one, lol. Its just a size thing.

Wilson has played VERY well. But when I see games like last week, where he seems like he has to roll out to complete any type of good passes, where almost every time he stays in the pocket, he doesn't do much, it concerns me.

This is a concern Brees has obviously dispelled at six foot, given his career achievements. If Wilson starts passing like Brees, out of the pocket, then I will say even a five foot nine QB can do it.

As for Kaeperick, he has the height to pass effectively from the pocket. He is tall. He has passed effectively from the pocket before. I have no doubts he will again, many, many times over his career. There is no reason why physically, he should have any limitations from the pocket, unlike Wilson, where there are true reasons to wonder because of his size.

For me, Gem, this goes back to Doug Flutie. I don't know if you are old enough to remember him. But he was just a sensational, athletic college QB. But in the pros, you could see how his lack of height, he was round 5'8, just restricted him from doing so much from the pocket.

Until Wilson or any five foot nine QB shows he can pass from the pocket just as well as taller, top QBs can, I will take my QB order tall, please.

As for your Vikings, yes, it would seem Cleveland has already tossed their hat into getting a franchise QB in next years draft so I would think you guys will beat them. All I can hope for is that you beat us too, lol.

Dan,

Some interesting points you bring up. Yes, you will need to get much more proficient at offense to start entertaining thoughts of winning the big show. And while Smith is a vast improvement over Cassell, he may not be the guy who can get you where you want to go. If that is the case, you will be stuck in perpetual limbo like my Steelers were for a decade, with very good teams, hampered by Neil Odonnel and Kordell Stewart. That gets old after a while, even with a good team.

But your defense sure brings it. A pleasure to watch. And I think it is getting safe to say a wild card is in your future this year. And I would also venture to guess that you are a Peyton Manning season ending injury away from winning the division.

As for Reid and Chip Kelly? Well, the Eagles look a lot like last year except they don't huddle, lol.

Chip Kelly and more importantly Eagles fans now have to face the same reality that Reid had to, their defense is not so good and second, Mike Vick sucks, lol.

So until those two things are cleared up, Kelly most likely won't achieve much more than Reids 4-12 Eagles did last year. No system can help a team that has such big flaws. In the end, no matter what system you use, you gotta have the horses.

Randrew

Ah-HAH.... I don't expect Oakland to compete with Dungver.. it looks like a blowout game is imminent...

Those 10pt teasers are good and bad... However, they pay sh!t... if you put 100$ on a 10pt teaser, it pays back around 65... I was actually looking at doing one myself... I was debating taking Jax+30.5 as 1 of my games... I think I'm just going to wait... After last night's debacle and the straight bets I already made, my account is below 20$ already.. i don't want to load it up again so soon..

All week derek has like KC, while I admittedly figured PHI would win... Well he phoned me at about 745 last night.. i was out on a bone-ride, so I told him "hey half the $$ is yours, you want to make the bet, make the bet".. He calls me back 15mins later and tells me "i took your PHI"... So I told him "look, there'll be times in which we'll like opposite teams, and there'll be times in which I will be right and times in which you (derek) will be right"..

So he goes against his own gut feeling and bets PHI... He should've stood by his guns, but no use crying over spilled milk..

Randy, as far as why we don't learn our lesson: I will only gamble what I can afford to gamble... I can't and I WON'T go beyond my means. I'm sure that is how you work too. I'm not some high wagering fool... At times, I wish I could be a high roller... Last year, we each put in 50$ to start the season, and cashed out 1550$.... Not too shabby.... It was the straight bets late in the year that really increased our $$..

After that incredible opening game, the Niners have followed it up with two flops in a row. 1-2 is surprising to say the least. Colin Kaepernick is a gifted athlete, but he's showing that he has a lot to work out between the ears about the QB position. By comparison Andrew Luck does a MUCH better job of not staring down his receivers and making great decisions. Luck appears to be much harder to read. Still...27-7? Wow. And that score is no fluke. The Colts gave the Niners a beatin'.

Baptist,

Yes, I only bet with my means. If I hit a certain point, I stop. No inveterate, junkie gambler here. By the way, the bet against the Steelers method is now 0-3 lol. I shall keep riding it.

Dan,

Yes, Kaepernick is young and obviously needs to grow. There is something else too going on with that team that has become obvious the last two games. They are really feeling the absence of Crabtree, Manningham and now Vernon Davis. They just don't have the firepower at WR then need. That problem is magnified in the NFC. Now they are two games behind Seattle and boy, who wants to play up there in the playoffs? lol. San Fran is now in a spot where they really can't afford to lose anymore while waiting for Manningham and Crabtree to comeback, in the middle of October and sometime in November, respectively. That is a long way off.

I guess on the bright side for 49er fans, if any team can win with a wildcard birth in the so tough NFC, it would be Frisco with a healthy Boldon, Manningham, Crabtree and Lewis. But it would still be such a tough road.

The interesting thing in that game, given their injuries and the fact they have one of best offensive lines in the game, you would expected them to run, run, run yesterday. And on their first TD drive, they did. Then they seemed to leave that philosophy. Kind of strange.

On the other hand, you really have to give Indy props on that win. They really are building a physical team there. And any win in Frisco, no matter what the circumstance, is a great one. It was the kind of win a young, up coming team and QB need to grow and move forward. By the way, I REALLY love Luck. I think that guy will just keep getting better and be one of the premier QBs in this league.

One last thing about that game that stood out, Indy ran for over 150 yards on Frisco. This shows how they physically dominated that game and the Niners.

^ Indy made the right decision to let Manning walk. Ballsy decision, but it may pay off for a long time for them. I agree that Luck is only going to get better. Odd how fast a franchise can go from the bottom to being competitive in such a hurry.

John, It feels pretty weird to have a game where I'll be cheering for the Raiders! Crazy things happen in rivalry games. Go get 'em! If I could slip in a little baseball talk...it's driving me nuts how the Cardinals are vying for the best record in the National League and yet they might not even win their division! Whacky! I think Division champions should have to face that one game playoff BS unless they have the best record. Maybe I'd feel differently if my team was in a weaker division like they have been in the past. But they all....

Dan,

I was in full accord with Indy to jettison Manning and draft Luck. You just can't pass on that given Mannings age. If I were a fan of Indy, I would have been PISSED in the extreme had they passed on Luck and gone with Manning, as great as he is. You gotta think about the next 15 years, not the next two or three. It is sick that you can have Manning then go right to Luck. Kind of like the Packers going from Favre to Rodgers while other teams go years, even decades between franchise QBs, if they have even had one at all.

Dan

Sorry we couldn't win to help the Chiefs...LOL...

Man, big head, long neck is tough... This guy P. Manning is the best QB i've ever watched, period... I couldn't care less about ring totals, as no one player is going to win a SB.. He is very machine like as Randrew pointed out...

I did like how Pryor played though.. Would be nice to see him with weapons..

Dan, as far as baseball goes, you don't have to apologize to Randy.. he's not a fan because Pittsburgh hasn't had a MLB team in 20 seasons.. LOL.. These Pirates are good....

As Far as what you said about the playoffs, I agree with you.. I would have liked to see the playoffs expanded in some way, but not the way it was done..

Now Dan, as for you dilemma, you've come to the right place... let the Baptist help you... The easiest solution to your troubles, is to just do what your heart has been telling you to do all season long... get on the blue train... As I often tell you Dan, you bleed DODGER BLUE not Cardinal red...

GO DODGERS!!!!

John --- ohhhhhhh brother, this could get intense if Red meets Blue in the playoffs. Could easily happen. Soon! They're both legitimate contendas Puig would be interesting in the playoffs. It's hard to tell if he's overrated or underrated. Wild player! But, Cardinals Nation forever! I only hope Allen Craig can make it back to the roster. He must have really messed himself up to be out this long. But if he doesn't, they still have Matt Adams who is mashing now with all the regular playing time. BTW, they're looking more brilliant by the minute for not chasing after Pujols. Great player. Great person. Way too much moolah! Angels may never recover. They're the Yankees of the AL West. They've mostly sucked for 2 years in a row now despite all that payroll. lol

Randy -- It really doesn't seem right that the Colts could go immediately from having Manning to getting Luck. smh. But the way I see it--Manning is surprising me now with his continued elite level of play--but he could be a stubbed toe away from retirement too. Maybe he's not as fragile as I think, but it seems like the Broncos could be a house of cards if Manning goes down.

Dan

We're turning this into the MLB thread... Hopefully we don't get banned for not staying "on topic".... LOL...

I don't feel Puig is either underrated or overrated... I see a young man who single-handedly turned this team around in June.. he is, as you put it a "wild player'... IMO, most of his mistakes are mistakes of aggression, which to me are forgivable... He's a confident player, and it shows... he does seem a bit immature at times, but he is still very young and raw..

Dan

As far as Pujols, I was actually hoping the Dodgers would make a run at him when he hit FA... Damn, thank god they didn't... He is fading fast... Perhaps it's true Dan.. Perhaps Albert is older than his posted age.. There was a lot of that with the Latin players, and I highly doubt MLB can and will get them all... he does look much older than his posted age of 33... he only has 36 extra base hits this season... He had a good season last year though.. 50 doubles, 30HR.. Not bad considering how slowly he started.

The one team that worries me is Cinci... lol.. I'm sure we'll be PM'ing the heck out of one another if and when LA/STL matchup...

Let's get it out in the open though Dan.. If and when STL is eliminated.. Who will you be rooting for??? I already know the answer, but let's put it in writing.....LMAO...

John, No, Dan has to apologize, just bringing up the intermidable scratch and spit boredom of baseball on a football thread deserves being banned. And he came damn close to getting it. Now to a REAL sport, the NFL. Best game of the week? The Cinci Greenbay Turnover Bowl. Eight in total. Just crazy. Cinci used turnovers to jump to a 14 zip lead, then GB used em to forge a large lead of their own. It looked like Cinci would fail yet another test against one of the better teams. But surprise, surprise, they used more turnovers to get the lead. They got the last turnover and won, lol. That Is really how that every entertaining game went all day. Cinci wasn't the only powerhouse want to be to secure seminal wins over established powerhouse teams. Miami took down Atlanta and the Colts did the same to Frisco. One has to give props to Miami's young QB Tannyhill, who has been forgotten in the Luck-Wilson-RG3-Kaepernick frenzy. He has more weapons this year and is doing a very good job. Miami may have finally found their first good QB looooooooooooooong after the Marino era ended. Some of the biggest disappointments of the young season: Washington, RG3 a ghost of last year and the team has given up more yards in the last three games than any other team in NFL history. The Giants are also 0-3 and just got CRUSHED by freaking Carolina. Yes, Carolina. Frisco at 1-2. Yes they have injuries, but still, they are getting manhandled physically. Not good. Some surprises? The Lions at 3-0. Bears at 3-0. Miami at 3-0. Are they for real or just good fakers early on? We shalll see. Next week my Steelers face Gems Vikings. So sadly, one of those teams will lose by winning. Unless there is a....

Randrew

Be NICE!!! I vaguely remember busting your chops during the Olypics because you were watching something like women's figure skating, LOL.. So please don't bust our chops for liking baseball... LMFAOOOO....