The Lakers Will Destroy This Young Team Because They Have to (P. 2)

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Ray
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Personally I am ok with giving up 2 core guys for Kwahi, but only if our FO was able to retain julius Randle some way or another.

However I am not ok with us losing 3 of our core 5 guys for him. I don't believe there is a way we can keep Randle if we trade for Kwahi and sign PG13 and LeBron.

So for me I would prefer option 1:

OPTION 1:

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / LeBron / Randle

Kuz / Hart

OPTION 2:

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / Kwahi / LeBron

Vet min / vet min

Also we can't sign and trade Randle since he is a restricted FA. So if we a new Big 3, we 100% lose Randle by default.

So overall I don't want Kwahi for 2 of our core guys because it would cost us Randle as well.


JJCali
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ralppcobarde wrote:
Its relative obvious that he makes the team better so basically he makes his teammates around better. But then again,he is a dominant superstar such as Kobe,Iverson or Tmac back in the days where they don't statistically makes their teammates better So don't expect the teammates around him to be better statistically.

When Love & Irving got down, he made Mozgov & Delly maximized their capabilities, Lebron was the reason we even considered Mozgov as our center.

Am no fan of Lebron but come on, he makes around him better and the team essentially

He ain't a floor general that people want it to portray to make his teammates better respectively. Such as CP3 or Jason Kidd. That Is not his main role. He is all around damn good player. He scores, facilitates and does everything where you can ask for.

In essence take Lebron off either Cavs/Heat and they will suck. Put Lebron on any team and they are conference finals bound.

It seems that you have concern on the sum of the parts of the team but that is more of a coach responsibility and how those pieces blend each other. But nonethless, Lebron didn't played with a coach who is a system & formal approach unlike with Pop and Pjax with Kobe or MJ.This is why teams are so spoiled with Lebron that they rely too much to him to bring them to the promised land.

People are so fixated with the GOAT debate that people forget that what Lebron so good is he didn't have any influence or a mentor that is very known or famous coming out of drafr. He is just that Transcendent.

Well I don't know if you've been paying attention, but nearly every player that joins him becomes criticized for sucking all of a sudden. That clearly isn't making your teammates better. It's the opposite. He's no different than Westbrook at this point in his career.


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
That's my mindset as well. The teammates aren't necessarily better, they have to alter their games significantly. Bosh was a hell of a post up player (face up) in Toronto and essentially became a spot up shooter in Miami. Even with possibly a top 3 SG in Wade and a top 3 PF in Bosh, Miami won two titles and one of those titles were a great three point shot by Ray Allen from being one title. How is there so much talent on one team and the results are so minimal? People started blaming the coach, the role players and never looked at the team only operating well when James put up big numbers. It's because there wasn't a system to get the lesser guys shots. James should be looking for a strong coach as opposed to a strong superteam. Poppovich with James on the roster would lead to a championship imo. Popp will hold James accountable, thesystem comes first and when James sits there wouldn't be a huge dropoff because there is a system and not players waiting to get their shots off James.

Thank you. Been saying it for years. Perfectly stated.


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
That's pretty much how I see it. There are the all-time greats, there are stars, superstars, etc. I'm not a big fan of we need to go all in for Paul George. Why? Ingram is developing into something similar. I understand Kawhi and going after him but at what price for a guy who has shown a pretty extensive injury history. If he played 65 games last season I wouldn't be as hesitant but he played 9 games and the injury is somewhat a mystery. I know every player is different but Tony Parker had a similar injury and most people say it was worse (rupture) but essentially Kawhi's injury has been labeled as tendinopathy and he's out the whole season dang near.

I'd give up Kuzma for him because I don't believe Kuzma's ceiling is much higher. I believe him getting experience will help aid his growth but we are talking about Kuzma who can shoot, drive pass, etc. and there aren't too many things he needs to work on offensively imo. Randle without a jumpshot and barely a right hand had similar numbers and I look at the long game of when he gets that jumpshot and that right hand then what can a team do to guard him? This is why I'm excited about Randle and I hope he takes another step, he seems to be a hard worker.

Yeah that's exactly why I see a difference as well with Randle I see more raw talent and more potential. With Kuzma I see a skilled rookie that will be a great role player.


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
Ray,

I should have worded it better. Honestly, I'm all for going to get someone like Paul George. Why? He's a guy who is a star in the league and plays on both ends. I'm all for Kawhi even though I have injury concerns but I don't want the Lakers to give up the farm for him (because their hopes are we have Kawhi and other guys will want to play with him).

My issues from what I've been reading is that the Lakers are possibly looking at a superteam. I don't believe the superteams really work all that well Miami ended up with two rings (If SA didn't blow game 6 it would have been one ring). Bron was 26 when he went to Miami, which means Bosh was 26 and Wade was 28. Those are prime years with a very powerful nucleus but it wasn't a great fit, not like Goldenstate, it's because each guy needed the ball to be effective. My issue with the Lakers wanting to go all in with some of the rumors swirling around is that I don't feel it's a great match of talent. James and George? How does James fit into this offensive system even though he seems to be rarely involved in an actual offensive system? I'd rather see someone like George, Randle and a center as opposed to James, Kawhi and George potentially

I can't rep all your posts today, Gem, but you're just making too much damn sense. I would be 100% happy with resigning Randle & KCP and getting a defensive minded center! I actually think long term that might be the number one route to take. KCP isn't quite as important to bring back as Randle obviously. But he's young and had a very nice 2nd half of the year. The market has gone down, he won't get a huge contract.


JJCali
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Ray wrote:
Personally I am ok with giving up 2 core guys for Kwahi, but only if our FO was able to retain julius Randle some way or another.

However I am not ok with us losing 3 of our core 5 guys for him. I don't believe there is a way we can keep Randle if we trade for Kwahi and sign PG13 and LeBron.

So for me I would prefer option 1:

OPTION 1:

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / LeBron / Randle

Kuz / Hart

OPTION 2:

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / Kwahi / LeBron

Vet min / vet min

Also we can't sign and trade Randle since he is a restricted FA. So if we a new Big 3, we 100% lose Randle by default.

So overall I don't want Kwahi for 2 of our core guys because it would cost us Randle as well.

Neither option. If you trade for KL, then just resign Randle and KCP and go after a center. There's no reason to sign James or George at that point.


Ray
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JJCali wrote:
Neither option. If you trade for KL, then just resign Randle and KCP and go after a center. There's no reason to sign James or George at that point.

So its a given 2 core guys will be gone to get Kwahi, or at least every NBA person thinks so, so let make an example using that info. Lets say we trade Ingram and Hart for Kwahi.

I'm not really sure who you have in mind for us to go after at Center position. But here is a line up given what you said.

Lonzo / KCP / Kwahi / Randle / (Cousins or D Jordan)

Bench: Caruso / Kuz / Bryant

Does this team get us a ring in the next 2-4 years? I dunno, personally I like my option 1 better. But that is why we are here on this forum.


Ray
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gemfow wrote:
Ray,

I should have worded it better. Honestly, I'm all for going to get someone like Paul George. Why? He's a guy who is a star in the league and plays on both ends. I'm all for Kawhi even though I have injury concerns but I don't want the Lakers to give up the farm for him (because their hopes are we have Kawhi and other guys will want to play with him).

My issues from what I've been reading is that the Lakers are possibly looking at a superteam. I don't believe the superteams really work all that well Miami ended up with two rings (If SA didn't blow game 6 it would have been one ring). Bron was 26 when he went to Miami, which means Bosh was 26 and Wade was 28. Those are prime years with a very powerful nucleus but it wasn't a great fit, not like Goldenstate, it's because each guy needed the ball to be effective. My issue with the Lakers wanting to go all in with some of the rumors swirling around is that I don't feel it's a great match of talent. James and George? How does James fit into this offensive system even though he seems to be rarely involved in an actual offensive system? I'd rather see someone like George, Randle and a center as opposed to James, Kawhi and George potentially

I personally stand by the fact that Cavs have never given Lebron a decent coach in which he could play in a good system of team basketball. For the time that he was with the Heat and Erik was his coach, the Heat were ranked the following in his 4 years on offense efficiency. I do think he could well in Luke's system.

2010 - 3rd

2011 - 6th

2012 - 1st

2013 - 2nd

With all that being said I would like PG13 and Cousins to join us this off season. Both guys are in there prime to go along with our young core.

My best off season that is realistic would be the following rooster.

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / Randle / Cousins

Hart / Kuz / 4.3m exception / vet min / vet min

However I would be happy if we get LeBron by all means.


gemfow
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Ray wrote:

My best off season that is realistic would be the following rooster.

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / Randle / Cousins

Hart / Kuz / 4.3m exception / vet min / vet min

However I would be happy if we get LeBron by all means.

Miami has had more of a system since Lebron went back to Cleveland. I think the problem is the expectations that come with a player like that. Coaches start to let him do his thing and ultimately he has to do everything. Poppovich isn’t like that and he’s still want the system ran. The pressure in LA would most likely mean Luke would fold and do what Spoelstra and Lue have done. I don’t want to see Lebron in a Lakers’ uniform. George and Cousins would be fantastic additions because both would be upgrades over KCP and Lopez. I expect Cousins to take one more year to get back to where he was. This season will be a transition season for him but I think he will have his moments of what he was.


JJCali
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Ray wrote:
Personally I am ok with giving up 2 core guys for Kwahi, but only if our FO was able to retain julius Randle some way or another.

However I am not ok with us losing 3 of our core 5 guys for him. I don't believe there is a way we can keep Randle if we trade for Kwahi and sign PG13 and LeBron.

So for me I would prefer option 1:

OPTION 1:

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / LeBron / Randle

Kuz / Hart

OPTION 2:

Lonzo / PG13 / Ingram / Kwahi / LeBron

Vet min / vet min

Also we can't sign and trade Randle since he is a restricted FA. So if we a new Big 3, we 100% lose Randle by default.

So overall I don't want Kwahi for 2 of our core guys because it would cost us Randle as well.

Neither option. If you trade for KL, then just resign Randle and KCP and go after a center. There's no reason to sign James or George at that point.


Ray
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JJCali wrote:
Neither option. If you trade for KL, then just resign Randle and KCP and go after a center. There's no reason to sign James or George at that point.

So its a given 2 core guys will be gone to get Kwahi, or at least every NBA person thinks so, so let make an example using that info. Lets say we trade Ingram and Hart for Kwahi.

I'm not really sure who you have in mind for us to go after at Center position. But here is a line up given what you said.

Lonzo / KCP / Kwahi / Randle / (Cousins or D Jordan)

Bench: Caruso / Kuz / Bryant

Does this team get us a ring in the next 2-4 years? I dunno, personally I like my option 1 better. But that is why we are here on this forum.


JJCali
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Ray wrote:
So its a given 2 core guys will be gone to get Kwahi, or at least every NBA person thinks so, so let make an example using that info. Lets say we trade Ingram and Hart for Kwahi.

I'm not really sure who you have in mind for us to go after at Center position. But here is a line up given what you said.

Lonzo / KCP / Kwahi / Randle / (Cousins or D Jordan)

Bench: Caruso / Kuz / Bryant

Does this team get us a ring in the next 2-4 years? I dunno, personally I like my option 1 better. But that is why we are here on this forum.

Well obviously we'd have to make a good bench, but yes I think that team could get you a title in a couple years.


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
Neither option. If you trade for KL, then just resign Randle and KCP and go after a center. There's no reason to sign James or George at that point.

No reason too, yes!! but FO will given the opportunity!!! Still say KCP was favor for James agent and just here for cap space.


userpete1037
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^^^

Yep he was a good old place holder...lol.


JJCali
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kkennon1 wrote:
No reason too, yes!! but FO will given the opportunity!!! Still say KCP was favor for James agent and just here for cap space.

I don't care. He should still be re-signed.


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
I don't care. He should still be re-signed.

Think he'll want a multi year deal, something Lakers probably aren't going to give if not a star...smh


JJCali
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kkennon1 wrote:
Think he'll want a multi year deal, something Lakers probably aren't going to give if not a star...smh

They should. He's young and good. And I don't think he's getting a big deal anywhere. Lock him up!

... but unfortunately you're probably right. I hate this front office!


kkennon1
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JJCali wrote:
They should. He's young and good. And I don't think he's getting a big deal anywhere. Lock him up!

... but unfortunately you're probably right. I hate this front office!

I think he will get a nice multi year deal. He was listed as 3rd best sg on market, and I'd have him over Lavine on this list.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2764 ... ion#slide4


JJCali
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kkennon1 wrote:
I think he will get a nice multi year deal. He was listed as 3rd best sg on market, and I'd have him over Lavine on this list.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2764 ... ion#slide4

But the market is not at all what it was two years ago. Heck, KCP gambled on t being like that last year and he screwed himself. The free agent market has shrunk. Contracts aren't what they were two years ago. Not even close. Now it's the max guys and then everyone else gets what's left. Highly doubt he gets more than $10 per year.


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
They should. He's young and good. And I don't think he's getting a big deal anywhere. Lock him up!

... but unfortunately you're probably right. I hate this front office!

That’s the difference between our FO and Ainge. Our FO wants the big names, Ainge does too but he still builds a team with the integral pieces.


userpete1037
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gemfow wrote:
That’s the difference between our FO and Ainge. Our FO wants the big names, Ainge does too but he still builds a team with the integral pieces.

I don't think LAL will ever have that approach. It'd be nice though to watch them build the young core though.


ralppcobarde
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gemfow wrote:
That’s the difference between our FO and Ainge. Our FO wants the big names, Ainge does too but he still builds a team with the integral pieces.

I'm optimistic though. Still giving this new management a chance. But the way the team is built now, we do have integral pieces in the future. This offseason will be critical for sure.

I believe we just need one big free agent signing, just being able to revive that “players want to play in LA again” mantra.


userpete1037
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ralppcobarde wrote:
I'm optimistic though. Still giving this new management a chance. But the way the team is built now, we do have integral pieces in the future. This offseason will be critical for sure.

I believe we just need one big free agent signing, just being able to revive that “players want to play in LA again” mantra.

Me personally I thought the one guy we needed from the beginning was DMC. That's until he had the injury. He along with that young core would've been something IMO.


JJCali
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gemfow wrote:
That’s the difference between our FO and Ainge. Our FO wants the big names, Ainge does too but he still builds a team with the integral pieces.

That was a very depressing post, Gem.


ralppcobarde
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userpete1037 wrote:
Me personally I thought the one guy we needed from the beginning was DMC. That's until he had the injury. He along with that young core would've been something IMO.

To be honest DMC fit concerns me, not only it slows the game & tempo for us. The way we run things is completely opposite of what he does. I know he can shoot & a bit plays a guard but he just slows the game down.

The Pelicans are just a better team with Mirotic & Davis on the front court. Spacing is a whole lot better. Unless we Move Kuzma at the 4 and have Cousins at 5. I don't think Randle + DMC. Are gonna work with the system we have.


userpete1037
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ralppcobarde wrote:
To be honest DMC fit concerns me, not only it slows the game & tempo for us. The way we run things is completely opposite of what he does. I know he can shoot & a bit plays a guard but he just slows the game down.

The Pelicans are just a better team with Mirotic & Davis on the front court. Spacing is a whole lot better. Unless we Move Kuzma at the 4 and have Cousins at 5. I don't think Randle + DMC. Are gonna work with the system we have.

I think they could've worked well together personally. Especially when DMC stretches the floor at the 3pt line at times. We'll never know.


JJCali
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userpete1037 wrote:
I think they could've worked well together personally. Especially when DMC stretches the floor at the 3pt line at times. We'll never know.

We may very well know! His fit would concern me too. But we don't really know how it would go. If he does come here, I'll be intrigued.


TERRY-TEAGLE
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If Bron comes , Randle is 100% gone - you are not going to pay a guy 18 mil to come off the bench

If Bron does come I would just go after D.Jordan and sign a bunch of vet shooters ... Keep the young guys minus Randle because Bron would be the new PF


Shepherd
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Probably. But my worry about DJ is he can't shoot ft's. I've always said I no longer want any players on this team who can't shoot ft's, at least at a decent % per position.


lakers52761
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jordan wants mavs don't he?


userpete1037
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^^^

He'll fit right in now since the team won't be built around him.


FrankBecerra
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If LeBron comes to the Lakes half the team will be gone since they need to get Kawai Lenard. I guess it’s a good thing the Lakes still have Ding. I think that was the master plan all along


Luke...
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I know we have to give up stuff for Kawhi...

I am still hoping that it won't have to be as much as the Spurs want... if Lebron and PG sig,. the price for Kawhi will go down for sure.

Especially if the Lakers can be patient.

So who would you value the most of our young guys if we Have Lebron, PG, and trade for Kawhi?

Lebron, PG, Kawhi... Ball will fit really well with those 3, so will Kuzma, Randle and Ingram might have fit problems and have to go to the bench which they are certainly not interested in doing. Hart is a great bench guy, and I am actually excited about Moe Wagner and how he will fit with those 3 superstars as well as with Lonzo. Caruso needs to be kept as well as I think he has a lot more potential as a backup point than I think he is being given.Thomas Bryant and Zubac need to show me more for them to have a bunch of value.

I value Ball and Kuzma the most I guess, also their paydays are further away than Ingram and Randle. that will help with contracts of those 3 big stars. So if Spurs took Ingram and Randle was involved in a 3-way sign-n-trade in some capacity that would probably be the most reasonable pill to swallow.

My best offer to the Spurs would be that: Ingram, Randle, and a future first for Kawhi... That Is reasonable and not an overly lopsided blind fan deal.

(if Randle is part of some 3-way whatever... its what it would take from us)


Shepherd
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Well Ball is untradeable now. Already has his first MCL tear. Surgery upcoming. Hopes to be ready for camp but ya never know. So far he's not exactly been bullet proof, and he can't shoot. I'd trade him in a hot second.


kkennon1
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TERRY-TEAGLE wrote:
If Bron comes , Randle is 100% gone - you are not going to pay a guy 18 mil to come off the bench

If Bron does come I would just go after D.Jordan and sign a bunch of vet shooters ... Keep the young guys minus Randle because Bron would be the new PF

Maybe they might not have to pay him 18m.


SantaBarbara
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I have not studied the salary cap rules however my understanding is that if the Lakers are able to sign LJ and PG to max contracts they won't be able to wait one year to sign KL as a free agent because they won't have cap room. A team can only go over the cap to sign players they already have under contract. Therefore IF they Lakers really want KL and if my understanding of cap rules is reasonably accurate then the Lakers FO will have to trade for KL at some point and cannot wait for him to become a free agent in one year unless KL takes a big cut in salary. The Spurs FO have no doubt thought this through and so if the Lakers do sign two max contracts then the Spurs know that the only way for the Lakers to get KL is via a trade therefore the price may not go down. So, yes, the Lakers will need to part with young talent and/or future draft picks. To get talent you, usually, need to give talent.


userpete1037
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Shepherd wrote:
Well Ball is untradeable now. Already has his first MCL tear. Surgery upcoming. Hopes to be ready for camp but ya never know. So far he's not exactly been bullet proof, and he can't shoot. I'd trade him in a hot second.

He has a torn meniscus not MCL. There's a difference.


kkennon1
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userpete1037 wrote:
He has a torn meniscus not MCL. There's a difference.

You mean ACL ?


Shepherd
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SantaBarbara wrote:
I have not studied the salary cap rules however my understanding is that if the Lakers are able to sign LJ and PG to max contracts they won't be able to wait one year to sign KL as a free agent because they won't have cap room. A team can only go over the cap to sign players they already have under contract. Therefore IF they Lakers really want KL and if my understanding of cap rules is reasonably accurate then the Lakers FO will have to trade for KL at some point and cannot wait for him to become a free agent in one year unless KL takes a big cut in salary. The Spurs FO have no doubt thought this through and so if the Lakers do sign two max contracts then the Spurs know that the only way for the Lakers to get KL is via a trade therefore the price may not go down. So, yes, the Lakers will need to part with young talent and/or future draft picks. To get talent you, usually, need to give talent.

Unless they wait for the trade deadline. Then it could change. But yes they'd have to trade. Anyways he's not a FA so a trade would be involved, until next summer. And then, no they couldn't afford him, depending what they do now. Still, you don't give away the farm for 1 guy. Even if no other options end up transpiring. Let's say they whiff on PG13 (stays in OKC), and LBJ (stays in CLE). You still don't give away half the team, as it exists, for one guy. Coz that won't get it done anyways. And IF PG1 stays in OKC it might be on a short deal, we don't know, same with LBJ. So next summer might be the summer of love for us. Who knows.


MAGICLAKEZ
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kkennon1 wrote:
You mean not ACL.

There is a MCL ligament as well. ACL crosses in the front of the knee and MCL is located on the inner side of your knee.


JJCali
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Thomas bryant was waived.


JJCali
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Hey, at least we kept Zubac!


JJCali
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kkennon1 wrote:
You mean not ACL.

He meant MCL. Medial collateral ligament.


MAGICLAKEZ
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Don’t get it.

They kept Zubac who was borderline trash and waived Bryant?


JJCali
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Zubac was a lot better than Bryant. Bryant can even make the team.


MAGICLAKEZ
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Zubac has regressed since he came into the league. Bryant was given very limited opportunities to showcase his talent.

Whatever!


SantaBarbara
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Shepherd wrote:
Unless they wait for the trade deadline. Then it could change. But yes they'd have to trade. Anyways he's not a FA so a trade would be involved, until next summer. And then, no they couldn't afford him, depending what they do now. Still, you don't give away the farm for 1 guy. Even if no other options end up transpiring. Let's say they whiff on PG13 (stays in OKC), and LBJ (stays in CLE). You still don't give away half the team, as it exists, for one guy. Coz that won't get it done anyways. And IF PG1 stays in OKC it might be on a short deal, we don't know, same with LBJ. So next summer might be the summer of love for us. Who knows.

Whether it is this summer or next summer, as long as we have a summer of love, I'll be happy Smile

Regarding short contracts I imagine if Lakers do sign LJ he'll choose to have a player option after just one year. As mentioned I don't know that much about the salary cap, can the Lakers have, say LJ signed this year, then opted out next year, sign KL next year and then resign LJ or once a player opts out is it like he was never a Laker and thus he, LJ, could not be resigned?


kkennon1
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Posts: 14311
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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votes: 23

MAGICLAKEZ wrote:

Don’t get it.

They kept Zubac who was borderline trash and waived Bryant?

Wagner!!! Another shooting big.


Shepherd
LNS HOF Silver
Posts: 11041

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votes: 55

userpete1037 wrote:
He has a torn meniscus not MCL. There's a difference.

Potato potahto lol. But yes you're right. My bad...


kkennon1
LNS HOF Silver
Posts: 14311
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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votes: 23

MAGICLAKEZ wrote:
There is a MCL ligament as well. ACL crosses in the front of the knee and MCL is located on the inner side of your knee.

Yeah I know, but isn't the meniscus the MCL ? Reports say MCL, which I thought was the meniscus.


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