Relentless Randle the Pit Bull of the Lakers

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SPQR
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Yes, I know his flaws. He is far more effective going left than right. When he shoots the jumper I expect it to miss. He can play wild and out of control making me shake my head about another turnover.

But make no mistake, Julius Randle brings way more to the team than his flaws take away. He is the true heart and soul of this young team. He is the warrior you have to kill to stop. He is the one who brings The Pain. Relentless, unremitting agony for any player who has to try guard him, for all the players on the opposing team who have to try stop him. For them, it’s never easy and there is always a price to pay.

You can see the Randle Effect so many times this year. The Lakers are playing a better, veteran team. They find themselves down by 8, 10, 12 points. The young guys- yes even spitfire Kuzma- look like they are curling up into a fetal position and big loss looms. You can see it coming. But then Randle just keeps attacking. Over and over he goes to the hole to get rebounds and to score, battering away, with a stark, unusually violent physical aggression. A game so violent and relentless that it starts to take the other team aback, puts them on their heels. Suddenly the other Lakers feed off this, sense the weakness and come alive. The team coalesces behind Randle’s attack and feels confidence, they come back to make a game of it and sometimes win. I’ve seen this play out several times this year.

It happened again last night against Boston when their defense was smothering the Lakers and we fell behind. You could see the loss coming. But Randle just kept attacking, putting the Celtics to the physical and emotional test. I had to laugh when Horford at one point had to come out. The Randle torture test made him look like he had not just run a marathon, but he had run one with a bad case of malaria. He looked that beat, that exhausted, that happy to get away from Randle. You could see it on his face, in his body language. And Horford is no shrinking violet. He's a tough guy. That wasn’t the first time Randle’s brutal, unceasing attack on a player has made me laugh out loud.

Randle is like some mutant pit bull from a horror movie, it opens its jaws wide, pounces and latches onto you and never let’s go. No matter what you do the pain and struggle just goes on and on. the best part is, he just doesn't do it. Like that monster from the movie, he relishes it. He lives for it. You can see on his face. It glows. He thrives on giving and taking pain, on making you suffer. He loves being down low, dishing out the hurt while he operates with manic abandon. He loves it while the opponent hates every second of it. And how I love him for it. How can’t you?

Yes Randle is the forgotten man among the younger players, the afterthought. Yes, Kuzma has a more sophisticated well rounded arsenal. Yes, Ball orchestrates the offense. Yes, Ingram has more potential and upside, but make no mistake, Randle is the pure warrior spirit of this team, and he is the monster that loves to bring the pain, he is the one who sets the mental and physical tone. He is the heart and soul of it. And unlike some other warriors who are strong in spirt but lack the ability, Randle brings the goods. His violent game produces; it produces in points, it produces in rebounds, it produces in dejected foes. On top of that he fits, he is a willing and excellent passer who is not afraid to share the ball.

What is incrediably annoying is watching Randle ply his violent game and effect on teams then watch Luke Walton decide to leave him on the bench for long stretches of or even the full fourth quarter. It happened again last night. While I know Nance is good backup, a nice bench player, he is no Randle. Nance played too many minutes in the fourth and was well on his way to free throwing the Lakers out of a great win. Finally with three minutes left Luke, after Nance’s third free throw miss in four attempts Luke finally put Randle back in. He scored right away and we won.

Luke, wake up. Watch who is bringing it for you every night? Bringing you something no one else does. Who had bailed you and the team out of a loss more than once with his love of relentless, violent, never say die posture. Start rewarding him. Here’s a clue, it’s not Nance.

Then you have the trade rumors. We have all heard them. Randle for say the Big Nothing, Nerlens Noel. If the Lakers make that trade, it will be a big mistake. Guys like Randle are rare. He brings something very few do: an ultra-violent, effective game that not only buoys his team but deflates the opposition. And he lives for it. That is rare. How many players in the league are like that, who do that? If the Lakers trade the relentless pit bull, they better get more than a role player, more than a good player, they better get something special or it will be our loss.

And the next time we are ten or fifteen points behind, our special, violent player will be somewhere else and not there to batter our way back into the game, to show the way for his teammates, to drag us back into the game or the win.

Yes I know all his flaws. And I also know what he is and what he brings, something no other player on this team can, that precious few players in the league have the stomach or will to bring. No other player has made me smile so much or enjoy the Lakers this year as Randle, the relentless pit bull who never stops, who loves to bring the pain. I love him for it. How can’t I?


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If Randle could develop a "Controlled Rage", he'd be unstoppable. The problem is when he get that tunnel vision, it's all downhill.


gemfow
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SPQR,

Very good post. You and I have both seen it, he keeps attacking and it takes the toll on the will of certain guys who don't want to play physical. Yes, the kid is flawed but he brings something that no other Lakers on this roster brings, a toughness, a I'm coming directly style that this team needs. While most others are pumping their fists and saying yes, keep increasing your trade value, I'm pumping my fist and saying keep taking it to this guy because this team needs it.

Randle has a rare combination of rage, athleticism, speed and tenacity that I fear Melinka (Magic/Pelinka) will want to turn into just a chance in free agency. Let these kids grow together, let them go uninterrupted by the huge names that Melinka want. I think the payoff would be pretty good, especially when Ingram takes another jump.


SPQR
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Gem,

Yep. Randle is a very rare player because of his attitude and physical ability.

And you bring up a great point. Who else is physical on this team, especially inside? I mean our center is more likely to take six three point shots than collect six rebounds. If you lose Randle we will be team wimp and that doesn't play well in this league.

I also agree about letting these guys play together oh say for at least four lousy years and see what develops as their games do. This big rush to get vets like Lebron, George or others is so short sighted. Golden State is gonna win it this year and next year. We are positioned to make a run as they start to fade. Then you try bring in someone to fill any gaps you have or get rid of guys you know are not fitting in.


BaadMaster
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Welcome back, SPQR.

You mention Luke leaving Randle on the bench. Well, what about Kuzma? He was out for the whole third quarter. Then he has to score 17 points in the fourth (with an incredible behind the back assist) to help pull this one out of the loss column.

Luke is really not a bad coach; but he is not a gifted one either.

JKidd might be an a**hole, but he would be a big improvement over Luke.

Overall, I would keep our Furious Five (Zo, Kuz, BI, "Streaky" Clarky and "Raging Bull" Randle) and all the rest are The Expendibles! Especially Larry "Overrated" Nance Jr. and Brook "I Shoot Threes" Lopez,

Add PG and a real center to the Five and you got something.


IhatetheCeltics
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BaadMaster wrote:
Welcome back, SPQR.

You mention Luke leaving Randle on the bench. Well, what about Kuzma? He was out for the whole third quarter. Then he has to score 17 points in the fourth (with an incredible behind the back assist) to help pull this one out of the loss column.

Luke is really not a bad coach; but he is not a gifted one either.

JKidd might be an a**hole, but he would be a big improvement over Luke.

Overall, I would keep our Furious Five (Zo, Kuz, BI, "Streaky" Clarky and "Raging Bull" Randle) and all the rest are The Expendibles! Especially Larry "Overrated" Nance Jr. and Brook "I Shoot Threes" Lopez,

Add PG and a real center to the Five and you got something.

lol, if you think Kidd would be a big improvement that tells me you haven't watched many Milwaukee games. He's a mediocre coach. He should've gotten fired last year.


kkennon1
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IhatetheCeltics wrote:
lol, if you think Kidd would be a big improvement that tells me you haven't watched many Milwaukee games. He's a mediocre coach. He should've gotten fired last year.

Agree , think key factor is Greek Freak , put him on Lakers and they're in playoff race. Kidd with this current Lakers team would have less wins in imo. You can question Luke's rotations and x's and o's now and than ,but he does get these guys to play hard for him , considering some of the players know they won't be here next year , and they're the youngest team in league.


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IhatetheCeltics wrote:
lol, if you think Kidd would be a big improvement that tells me you haven't watched many Milwaukee games. He's a mediocre coach. He should've gotten fired last year.

This , Kidd a nothing special at all


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kkennon1 wrote:
Agree , think key factor is Greek Freak , put him on Lakers and they're in playoff race. Kidd with this current Lakers team would have less wins in imo. You can question Luke's rotations and x's and o's now and than ,but he does get these guys to play hard for him , considering some of the players know they won't be here next year , and they're the youngest team in league.

Yep ... Luke is not the problem ... some fans just want to make excuses for this young, inexperienced, injured rattled, unbalanced roster


TERRY-TEAGLE
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As for Randle... he’s playing better now because he finally put his ego to the side and realized if he kept acting like a whiny chick , he won’t be getting paid by the Lakers or any other team.

I hope he and JC keep balling to increase that trade stock 😎


kkennon1
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On another note:


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Hi Randy, Nice to see your post again. As same with me, after years of watching poor basketball.im back again. I feel alive watching this lakers team again,after so many years since 2010. Last night was a great win for the team & organization.it's sending a message to our rival Celtics that we are coming for them too. I know Randle & Clarkson are subject for the trading block, but I'm thinking if the management just want to test them amidst of being subject on being traded. When Randle plays well, we are hard to beat even on top teams on the league.But i think the most important thing for this team for being a bit successful recently is three things: First is theyve already found their identity, when they play fast pace they can really be hard to beat.when they click at the same time the defense just click. The rhythm and flow is just so much better.this squad is really fast and i can tell you i like Hart and Kuzma because they can bring the ball up the court and you have Nance trailing. Nance does the dirty work together with Randle. Second, its becoming healthy. Either Nance or Randle are injured for sometime. The chemistry is there and they are starting to put it together. We might found our Back up PG for Ball which is Caruso. I know it some weird for others but Caruso is tall and can see the floor as well. He cuts and also has a good speed at PG. Third, Lonzo Ball culture. He certainly changed our team entirely for spreading the basketball and wealth. Even when he is injured, the ball still goes to several people. We just lack that one final punch who can finish the end games. Hopefully we have it in Kuzma....


SPQR
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BaadMaster wrote:
Welcome back, SPQR.

You mention Luke leaving Randle on the bench. Well, what about Kuzma? He was out for the whole third quarter. Then he has to score 17 points in the fourth (with an incredible behind the back assist) to help pull this one out of the loss column.

Luke is really not a bad coach; but he is not a gifted one either.

Hey Baad. Nice to see you.

I was never away, just posting on the NFL thread all year.

Luke has made some egregious errors. His silly handling of Randle is one. Another as you say with Kuzma.

And you have to remember something, if Nance hadn't been hurt Nance would still be starting.

When he got that injury I told Gemfow that this would be Nances Wally Pipp moment and Nance would never get that job back from Kuzma who should have been starting from game one. You could see since summer league kuzma should start. And amazingly enough when Nance came back Luke still tried to start him until it became too embarrassing for even him to keep that charade going.

When a coach who has an intimate birds eye view of a team and its players and can't see what is obvious to me, a fan, with the limited access of TV, that always worries me.

Luke also runs these oddball rotations that have no real reason. It seems to be his whim. Not based on anything that happened or how guys are playing.

It is early in his tenure and the team is young but that is zero excuse for his Randle and Kuzma debacles. Those were just bad decisions and evaluations, pure and simple.

Right now I view him as you do, not a bad coach but too many mistakes to be rated as any great new thing.

Also agree with our core to keep. Let them grow as players and see what that does for the team. And let's hope Luke grows too because he needs it as well as any of the young players, as he has clearly demonstrated.


Tempy
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Supposing Randle isn't traded at the deadline, what is everyone's opinion of his actions in this summer. It was evident that he was unhappy not to be offered an extension so will he be patient and wait to see what the franchise does, or does he sign an offer sheet ASAP with another team?


JJCali
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TERRY-TEAGLE wrote:
As for Randle... he’s playing better now because he finally put his ego to the side and realized if he kept acting like a whiny chick , he won’t be getting paid by the Lakers or any other team.

I hope he and JC keep balling to increase that trade stock 😎

Agree... but he put his ego aside and stopped pouting after like a handful of games. He started the season poorly, but has been balling for a long time now. This isn't recent.


JJCali
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SPQR,

Thank you for posting this! I'm tired of being the only one supporting Randle on here lol. I agree with your take, but I'm curious as to what you think Randle's potential is. I think more than just getting under control, if he ever develops even a solid mid range shot, he will be somewhat unstoppable. I don't think many bigs can really guard him now, and if they had to respect his jump shot it would be over. I'm not saying it would make him a superstar, but I think if he has that alone, he will develop into an all-star caliber player in very short time.

As far as Luke goes, I'm not gonna say he's a bad coach, but his rotations drive me crazy as well. More than anything Randle's lack of playing time. Kuzma gets a good amount of playing time, but at times not enough. Not saying Nance shouldn't play, but imo Kuzma & Randle are clearly superior players. Per 36 stats aren't everything, we all know that, but they are a decent guide to show what someone getting 25 min a game could be doing when we already see the impact he has. Randle's per 36 are 21, 11 & 3 while shooting 55%. That's not good, for a 23 year old, that's GREAT! And he is considered around the league to be a good defender now too. Agree that Lonzo runs the team and his impact is big and will be even bigger as he gets better. And Ingram has more upside. But I think Randle, if given the playing time, would clearly be our best player at the moment. Also agree trading him for little or letting him walk in free agency would be a huge mistake and we'd end up watching him flourish for someone else. Hate this plan to bring in free agents for imo a short sighted goal that would have no chance at a championship.

Love that Randle is getting more playing time recently. Hope it continues. Great post SPQR. Great post by you too Gem. And Baad, couldn't agree more with you that we should absolutely be keeping Lonzo, Randle, Ingram, Kuzma & Clarkson. Those are the 5 players to build around.


gemfow
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JJCali wrote:
Agree... but he put his ego aside and stopped pouting after like a handful of games. He started the season poorly, but has been balling for a long time now. This isn't recent.

Thank you. Like you said it was a few games and I think it had more to do with him coming off the bench and Nance starting. I still don't understand that idea of starting Nance while Kuzma and Randle both played better than him during the preseason. Luke has to make some hard decisions and put a concrete rotation out thee and stop with the "this group is playing well" nonsense which changes from game to game. He can end up losing some players like that if they don't have a defined role. Management also needs to help Luke out by moving some redundant players.


lakerdudeinindy
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Great to have SPQR and Gem give their insights, it's been awhile. JJCali, you have ALWAYS stepped up for Randle and I agree with you. He reminds me of Larry Johnson, but not as explosive, but has that punishing type of game and JJ you are right...if his mid range game comes along, he can move past the projection of just being a rotation player. I think, that many of you on this particular thread has said, Randle can play a special role on this team and I would like to see this team grow together.


Axle
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Nice post SPQR and good to see you posting again. Missed your great ability to post great articles. Now on Randle I completely agree with what you are saying about him. His is a beast and the lakers would make a big mistake trading him or Clarkson. I got to admit Randle does make some bonehead mistakes, like running over players and a foul is called every time. When he lowers his should and plows over players, that is not good. He needs to stop doing that. The Lakers have a great bunch of young talent and I wish they would keep them together at least a couple of more years. The league is taking notice that these young lakers have great potential and announcers are talking about how good and explosive they can be. I got to admit when Lonzo first come into the Lakers I did not care to much for him, but man was I wrong. That kid is probably the best rookie point guard I have seen in a long time. But I got to admit I did not like his shooting style, but it seems like he is proving me wrong because the more he plays the more confidence he is getting on his shooting. When this young Lakers try, they are very good moving the ball fast is a must for this team to succeed and run the legs off those veteran teams. There are some players that I would trade, but not Randle or Clarkson. The thing is they probably would trade for garbage players that other teams have released and the Lakers have this notion that they want two super stars. I sure hope they do not try to go after LeBron.....


kkennon1
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Think Randle is on team next season if price is right, if not , than he's a goner regardless if they sign 2 max guys. As well as he has played lately, still don't think he's a 18-20 mil guy.

.


TERRY-TEAGLE
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kkennon1 wrote:
Think Randle is on team next season if price is right, if not , than he's a goner regardless if they sign 2 max guys. As well as he has played lately, still don't think he's a 18-20 mil guy.

.

Agree... no way in hell i’m giving him that type of money ... I would rather keep him than Clarkson but at Clarkson type money not Deng type money


Tempy
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Well, with the comments from PG13 after being snubbed for the ASG, it seems that it's becoming more and more likely that no major free agents are coming in the summer.


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JJ Cali, nice to see you. it's been a while. Your are welcome. I haven't been posting much on the basketball side of things but you know, Randle kind of forced me to do it to be honest with you. You know as well as I do what all the talk is always about, Ball, his passing and his shooting, the amazing Kuzma, Ingram's potential. But you know what, Cali, while all that is certainly topic for discussion, when I watch this team, I see Randle play a brand of ball that you just don't see anyone doing. Randle has this tag now, you know, he's Randle, the guy who kind of fell through the cracks. If he wasn't on this team and we traded for him, under the name Bob Johnson, and he played like this, people would be talking a lot about him. But he is here under the name Randle and some people like you and I and Gem and some others are noticing plenty about him. Cali, you asked about his potential. I would echo what you said. If he can develop a dependable jump shot, doesn't even have to be a three point shooter, develop his right hand and add a few more moves, he would become something very, very special. A force in this league as powerful in his own way as any of the top players. What makes him stand out Cali, not just because of his effectiveness right now, is his effectiveness added to the way he just batters and beats down his opposition. How many players do that? He is an oddball talent. And I mean that in all the best ways. He's a rarity. Cali, if this guy can push his game up one more level and I think he can, he could....


SPQR
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Ralppcobarde,

Hey, nice to see you too. It's been a while for me.

I know what you mean when you say you are enjoying the Lakers again. Even though we have lost many game and yes, we are bad in the grand scheme of things, when they are playing their ball, they are really fun to watch. And no disrespect to Kobe and Pau but the last years of those teams were brutal because the style of ball was horrific and slow and you could see no one was having fun.

With this team, win or lose, you see smiles, energy and fun. You can see they love to play and grow as players and a team. And what makes it really nice is they share the ball. None of the biggest young players, Kuzma, Ball, Randle or Ingram are ball hogs. No black holes. And you see, because they are the real leaders, they set the tone for that kind of play. Anyone who comes here and tries to hog the ball will quickly find themselves on the outside looking in and that's a great culture to have starting here.

I really love watching these guys play, the fast breaks, the enthusiasm, the hustle, the improved defense and the young kids very unique skills and games. It would be such a great team to root for if it grows into a title contender. Just a special thing. Not a mercenary Lebron-George team. But kids who came here together and did it themselves.

I think you are right in that Ball got the culture started. Fortunately the supposed future of this team, Kuzma, Randle and Ingram are right with that program.

Lakersdudeinindy,

Great to see you too.

Yep, I like your analogy to Larry Johnson. He's not as gifted as Johnson, that guy was a freak, but he has gifts of his own and his warrior attitude is as strong as any player I've seen. He loves to mix it up and hurt and be hurt. You just don't see that kind of attitude very often. This guy has a chance to be the premier muscle/attacker player in the league and also the most gifted and effective.


kkennon1
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kkennon1
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SPQR, you wrote:

Cali, you asked about his potential. I would echo what you said. If he can develop a dependable jump shot, doesn't even have to be a three point shooter, develop his right hand and add a few more moves, he would become something very, very special. A force in this league as powerful in his own way as any of the top players. What makes him stand out Cali, not just because of his effectiveness right now, is his effectiveness added to the way he just batters and beats down his opposition. How many players do that? He is an oddball talent. And I mean that in all the best ways. He's a rarity.

Yeah, I've said the same thing about Randle, but the question is can and will he. Because his outside hasn't looked Like it's improved at all since he came into league. As you mentioned, still doesn't go right and his IQ is still a question. If he can improve on all that , than he can become something special. I guess the big question as far as FO is , is he worth 18m + if that's what it takes to keep him, I personally don't see a player worth that much in him right now.


SPQR
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Kkennon1,

I agree with everything you just said. His jumper has not improved. And he still wants to go exclusively to his right. He still plays out of control. If he doesn't improve then this is the best of Randle right now. I have to believe he has a work ethic for two reasons, the way he plays which is very difficult and taxing and how he totally reshaped his body which had to take much hard work and discipline. I think next year we should see an improvement in some of these areas or we can begin to suspect he is not going to evolve much more. Given that I am happy with the substantial jump his game took this year.

Remember too the other's have a ton of work to do if they are to become what we want and need. Kuzma must learn to apply more of that energy to defense. He also can get wild at times. Ingram will have to work as hard on his body as Randle did and there is no area where he cannot improve. That brings us to Ball. No matter how well he runs the offense if he can't improve his shooting by a significant amount he will end up being a liability that other teams will exploit over and over again and it will cost us dearly.

Lastly there is another problem that is right at the top of my concerns and that is free throw shooting. If our top players can't improve on that, and Ball is once again the chief offender both because of his percentage and also the position he plays, we have a huge problem. No matter how good all these guys get, when we play other good teams in the playoffs if they are making their free throws and we are missing ours, it's going to make it very difficult to navigate the full playoff trail to the ultimate conclusion we desire.


kkennon1
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SPQR ,agree with a lot of what you said, but do you think he's worth 18m or more if a team makes that offer???


SPQR
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Kkennon,

That's the rub, right? I guess it depends on what the FO thinks. Will he take the next step?

The other thing is what will Lebron and George do? If they make it clear they are not coming to LA I think and hope they will take the chance on Randle. If they think they can get George and Lebron they will surely let Randle go. One thing I'm sure of is Magic and Pelinka want Lebron and George.

I would take the chance because I have no interest in Lebron or George.

Which brings me to a side topic, lol. When they hired Pelinka I heard several times he's a good judge of talent.

I just kind of accepted that and didn't think about it. But since then I have. And now I think this: what made him a good judge of talent? He was an agent. Kobes agent. Who was he scouting for? No one. What team or organization was he getting talent for? None. Where did he get this reputation?

So what qualified him to be a GM?

I have a theory about why he got that job. It's just a thought I had. It concerns Ryan West and why Magic may never have wanted him to be GM even though he seemed so very much more qualified than agent Pelinka.


JJCali
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Kkennon, I know you directed your questions towards SPQR, but I'm sure you don't mind others responding... after all this is a forum lol.

So to your first question, WILL HE take the next step and become a definite star? I would answer with a couple things. Don't you want to find out? Aren't you pretty hopeful based off the improvement you've seen thus far? You're right, his midrange has not improved, and after 3 years you'd like to have seen that, but he is still just 23 years old. I would take the risk to find out. He's already a solid player, I have little doubt that he'll become a very good player. I do doubt that he'll ever be a superstar, but if you take the "risk" it's to find out if he can become an all star level player. But I think the risk reward is definitely in our favor because I believe worst case scenario, his peak is a very good player.

Now to your 2nd question, What is it worth? Is it worth paying $15, $18, or $20 million? I'd say absolutely to 15. I would go as high as 18. Anything over that, I guess is where it really does become risky. But that just depends on the direction the FO wants the team to head. And wether or not they can get something better. I too don't believe that chasing vets for nearly twice as much money is better.

So we'll just have to see. But as Randle is a restricted free agent, others teams may not even offer him a large contract that we'd be forced to match. They may not want to get their only cap space tied up while we decide to match or not. And in that case we may get to re-sign Randle on a good deal.


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JJCali wrote:
SPQR,

As far as Luke goes, I'm not gonna say he's a bad coach, but his rotations drive me crazy as well. More than anything Randle's lack of playing time. Kuzma gets a good amount of playing time, but at times not enough. Not saying Nance shouldn't play, but imo Kuzma & Randle are clearly superior players. Per 36 stats aren't everything, we all know that, but they are a decent guide to show what someone getting 25 min a game could be doing when we already see the impact he has. Randle's per 36 are 21, 11 & 3 while shooting 55%. That's not good, for a 23 year old, that's GREAT! And he is considered around the league to be a good defender now too. Agree that Lonzo runs the team and his impact is big and will be even bigger as he gets better. And Ingram has more upside. But I think Randle, if given the playing time, would clearly be our best player at the moment. Also agree trading him for little or letting him walk in free agency would be a huge mistake and we'd end up watching him flourish for someone else. Hate this plan to bring in free agents for imo a short sighted goal that would have no chance at a championship.

Love that Randle is getting more playing time recently. Hope it continues. Great post SPQR. Great post by you too Gem. And Baad, couldn't agree more with you that we should absolutely be keeping Lonzo, Randle, Ingram, Kuzma & Clarkson. Those are the 5 players to build around.

Thanks JJ, I should have proofed my response before posting since autocorrect seems to have me sounding like English is my third language, lol


gemfow
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lakerdudeinindy wrote:
Great to have SPQR and Gem give their insights, it's been awhile. JJCali, you have ALWAYS stepped up for Randle and I agree with you. He reminds me of Larry Johnson, but not as explosive, but has that punishing type of game and JJ you are right...if his mid range game comes along, he can move past the projection of just being a rotation player. I think, that many of you on this particular thread has said, Randle can play a special role on this team and I would like to see this team grow together.

Thanks, I know I've been kind of distant for a while but all those Kobe arguments and this kid is not a star, trade him arguments just made me step away. I still watch at least 95% of the Lakers' games


gemfow
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TERRY-TEAGLE wrote:
Agree... no way in hell i’m giving him that type of money ... I would rather keep him than Clarkson but at Clarkson type money not Deng type money
I think the problem I see here is fans like you and I saying he's not wworth this or he's not worth that but the Lakers are in competition to keep talent and build a team. There will be teams who will possibly pay that and then the Lakers lose him for nothing and hope to sign a free agent who will be older for a cheap price. Signing players don't always happen at the price point we want but signing Randle isn't like signing Deng and Mozgof who provided pretty much zero.


gemfow
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kkennon1 wrote:
SPQR ,agree with a lot of what you said, but do you think he's worth 18m or more if a team makes that offer???

Can you name any team in the league that hasn't slightly overpaid for talent? We keep saying a guy isn't worth this, that and whatever but what is he worth to the team being built? There is this guy who averages ten points, seven rebounds and seven assists but he's making 16 million and will be 17 million next season and then 18 million after that. He's a six year vet so he pretty much is what he is. Do you feel his stats deserve that type of salary?

Maybe we should let Randle receive offers from other teams while the Lakers search around for big names to take up salary cap space? Then we can watch him walk for nothing after LA balks at the price. That means the Lakers lose talent and neither Nance or Kuzma can fill that spot of bringing a bruiser who can run the floor, impose his presence wildly, switch on to guards, etc. it doesn't mean they don't have their strengths but a guard can't be switched onto Randle. You can put. Aguard on Nance and Kuzma.


kkennon1
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gemfow wrote:
I think the problem I see here is fans like you and I saying he's not wworth this or he's not worth that but tyeLakersare ina competition to keep talent and build a team. There will be teams who will possibly pay that and then the Lakers lose him for nothing and hope to sign a free agent who will be older for a cheap price. Signing players don't always happen at the price point we want but signing Randle isn't like signing Deng and Mozgof who provided pretty much zero.

His RFA, so if another team does offer , they can match it or let him walk. Personally I don't think he's worth that much , I'd try to get a Clarkson deal, were Clarkson probably could have made more, but wanted to be here. Either way they have plenty of time, don't really have to worry about him till FA.


kkennon1
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gemfow wrote:
Can you name any team in the league that hasn't slightly overpaid for talent? We keep saying a guy isn't worth this, that and whatever but what is he worth to the team being built? There is this guy who averages ten points, seven rebounds and seven assists but he's making 16 million and will be 17 million next season and then 18 million after that. He's a six year vet so he pretty much is what he is. Do you feel his stats deserve that type of salary?

Maybe we should let Randle receive offers from other teams while the Lakers search around for big names to take up salary cap space? Then we can watch him walk for nothing after LA balks at the price. That means the Lakers lose talent and neither Nance or Kuzma can fill that spot of bringing a bruiser who can run the floor, impose his presence wildly, switch on to guards, etc. it doesn't mean they don't have their strengths but a guard can't be switched onto Randle. You can put. Aguard on Nance and Kuzma.

And Randle can't guard better 5's in league, so until he starts to improve on an outside shot, mid-range, something, to be more effective at 4!!! Than he'll be somewhat one-demisional imo. So I have no problem with letting him receive offers, not a lot of cap space out there, so he might not get a big offer and come back cheap anyways.


Tempy
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Repped High Quality Post

gemfow wrote:
Can you name any team in the league that hasn't slightly overpaid for talent? We keep saying a guy isn't worth this, that and whatever but what is he worth to the team being built? There is this guy who averages ten points, seven rebounds and seven assists but he's making 16 million and will be 17 million next season and then 18 million after that. He's a six year vet so he pretty much is what he is. Do you feel his stats deserve that type of salary?

Maybe we should let Randle receive offers from other teams while the Lakers search around for big names to take up salary cap space? Then we can watch him walk for nothing after LA balks at the price. That means the Lakers lose talent and neither Nance or Kuzma can fill that spot of bringing a bruiser who can run the floor, impose his presence wildly, switch on to guards, etc. it doesn't mean they don't have their strengths but a guard can't be switched onto Randle. You can put. Aguard on Nance and Kuzma.

It all comes down to where a team is at in the rebuild. At this moment I don't think Randle or Ingram are worth the max they can be offered. Fortunately that decision is a way off with Ingram.

As we all know, a decision needs to be made on Randle. If the team was already over the cap, it's an easy decision to just sign him at almost any cost. The Lakers are not in this position, every dollar matters while a team is under the cap. Does signing PG13 or even LBJ, then resigning Randle make the roster contenders?

IMO I don't see any marquee free agents coming. So is bringing back Randle and losing a huge chunk of the cap space worth it for the long term? Any future success comes down to how well Ingram/Ball/Kuz develop. Randle is a nice player in the right system, I just don't think he is the future of the franchise. I wouldn't over pay to keep him around, not with so many other needs on the roster, like a center, a legit shooter, and a back up point.


kkennon1
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Tempy wrote:
It all comes down to where a team is at in the rebuild. At this moment I don't think Randle or Ingram are worth the max they can be offered. Fortunately that decision is a way off with Ingram.

As we all know, a decision needs to be made on Randle. If the team was already over the cap, it's an easy decision to just sign him at almost any cost. The Lakers are not in this position, every dollar matters while a team is under the cap. Does signing PG13 or even LBJ, then resigning Randle make the roster contenders?

IMO I don't see any marquee free agents coming. So is bringing back Randle and losing a huge chunk of the cap space worth it for the long term? Any future success comes down to how well Ingram/Ball/Kuz develop. Randle is a nice player in the right system, I just don't think he is the future of the franchise. I wouldn't over pay to keep him around, not with so many other needs on the roster, like a center, a legit shooter, and a back up point.

Well said Tempy, I would like to see Randle remain a laker, but at price that works for both sides.


gemfow
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kkennon1 wrote:
His RFA, so if another team does offer , they can match it or let him walk. Personally I don't think he's worth that much , I'd try to get a Clarkson deal, were Clarkson probably could have made more, but wanted to be here. Either way they have plenty of time, don't really have to worry about him till FA.

Mitch and Jim approached things that way too. Let other teams dictate the market value while they try to obtain big names or expect their own players to wait while they get big names and then go over the cap to sign their own guys. I say offer him a fair deal but I don’t even think the Lakers tried that but I’m not sure, maybe they did.

He’s worth more than Clarkson so trying to give him a contract that pays 13 annually when the cap went up probably isn’t going to work


gemfow
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kkennon1 wrote:
And Randle can't guard better 5's in league, so until he starts to improve on an outside shot, mid-range, something, to be more effective at 4!!! Than he'll be somewhat one-demisional imo. So I have no problem with letting him receive offers, not a lot of cap space out there, so he might not get a big offer and come back cheap anyways.

There are teams who lack talent with cap space who can offer what you feel he isn’t worth and then what do you have? Oh yeah, cap space to offer to a player who would like to see more talent on the roster, not less.


gemfow
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Tempy wrote:

IMO I don't see any marquee free agents coming. So is bringing back Randle and losing a huge chunk of the cap space worth it for the long term? Any future success comes down to how well Ingram/Ball/Kuz develop. Randle is a nice player in the right system, I just don't think he is the future of the franchise. I wouldn't over pay to keep him around, not with so many other needs on the roster, like a center, a legit shooter, and a back up point.

Very well said Indeed, I appreciate a post like this that says more than he’s not worth it. It does depend on where we are at during the rebuild but what can possibly happen is the Lakers decide to let him walk which is a hit against the rebuild and once again the Lakers strike out in free agency due to youth and lack of talent. Teams have to start staggering their contracts very much like NFL teams who also overpay for certain guys but they’re not guaranteed like NBA contracts. A team can’t just keep letting guys walk for nothing because it sets the team back. If Randle walks then you’re left with Kuzma and Nance. Nance will forever be a high flying garbage man who misses easy shots and Kuzma shows flashes of a guy who can be damn good but he may not develop either, you just don’t know. This idea of going after birds in a bush when you have birds in your hand hasn’t worked out well for us.


kkennon1
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gemfow wrote:
There are teams who lack talent with cap space who can offer what you feel he isn’t worth and then what do you have? Oh yeah, cap space to offer to a player who would like to see more talent on the roster, not less.

Like I said, guess we'll find out come FA. I get what your saying, but I guess we have a difference of opinion on Randle's talents. He's looked better lately, but we're not exactly playing top teams right now. If he'd developed a shot away from rim, than I'd be more convinced. But I've noticed better team play him to shoot away from basket and he ends up getting a charge or throws up a bad shot forcing his way to rim. So in my mind Gemfow, is he going to continue to improve or is this what he's going to be ??? Think it's a fairly question.


kkennon1
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gemfow wrote:
Very well said Indeed, I appreciate a post like this that says more than he’s not worth it. It does depend on where we are at during the rebuild but what can possibly happen is the Lakers decide to let him walk which is a hit against the rebuild and once again the Lakers strike out in free agency due to youth and lack of talent. Teams have to start staggering their contracts very much like NFL teams who also overpay for certain guys but they’re not guaranteed like NBA contracts. A team can’t just keep letting guys walk for nothing because it sets the team back. If Randle walks then you’re left with Kuzma and Nance. Nance will forever be a high flying garbage man who misses easy shots and Kuzma shows flashes of a guy who can be damn good but he may not develop either, you just don’t know. This idea of going after birds in a bush when you have birds in your hand hasn’t worked out well for us.

Think that's where you and I differ, I value Kuz over Randle, especially going forward at 4 spot.


gemfow
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kkennon1 wrote:
Like I said, guess we'll find out come FA. I get what your saying, but I guess we have a difference of opinion on Randle's talents. He's looked better lately, but we're not exactly playing top teams right now. If he'd developed a shot away from rim, than I'd be more convinced. But I've noticed better team play him to shoot away from basket and he ends up getting a charge or throws up a bad shot forcing his way to rim. So in my mind Gemfow, is he going to continue to improve or is this what he's going to be ??? Think it's a fairly question.

It’s definiteky a fair question. Randle needs to refine some things in his game. He would do well if he showed more confidence in his fadeaway after hitting players. He’s not going to be able to overpower everybody and has shown with some of his wild layups he’s tried to put over guys who defended him well. Bottom line is he needs a jumpshot and if he does get one then he will be a problem.


kkennon1
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gemfow wrote:
It’s definiteky a fair question. Randle needs to refine some things in his game. He would do well if he showed more confidence in his fadeaway after hitting players. He’s not going to be able to overpower everybody and has shown with some of his wild layups he’s tried to put over guys who defended him well. Bottom line is he needs a jumpshot and if he does get one then he will be a problem.

We definitely agree about that, I think he'd be an all-star. Also needs to learn to go right more.


Tempy
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kkennon1 wrote:
And Randle can't guard better 5's in league, so until he starts to improve on an outside shot, mid-range, something, to be more effective at 4!!! Than he'll be somewhat one-demisional imo. So I have no problem with letting him receive offers, not a lot of cap space out there, so he might not get a big offer and come back cheap anyways.

Plenty of teams can find the $26mill or so it would take for Randle though. Especially bad teams that need talent such as the Kings, Mavs and Bulls. Not saying they would offer that much but teams over pay every summer.

The FO would have been better off trying to negotiate an extension at the beginning of the summer, hindsight and all that.


kkennon1
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Tempy wrote:
Plenty of teams can find the $26mill or so it would take for Randle though. Especially bad teams that need talent such as the Kings, Mavs and Bulls. Not saying they would offer that much but teams over pay every summer.

The FO would have been better off trying to negotiate an extension at the beginning of the summer, hindsight and all that.

Is it 26m? I thought it started at 18m to 20m, definitely not give 26 if I'm running FO.


gemfow
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kkennon1 wrote:
Think that's where you and I differ, I value Kuz over Randle, especially going forward at 4 spot.
I do too but my point is you don’t know if he will develop beyond what we see now. Kuzma is very skilled but will he ever be a good defender? We don’t know.


gemfow
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Tempy wrote:
Plenty of teams can find the $26mill or so it would take for Randle though. Especially bad teams that need talent such as the Kings, Mavs and Bulls. Not saying they would offer that much but teams over pay every summer.

The FO would have been better off trying to negotiate an extension at the beginning of the summer, hindsight and all that.

Yep, they should have negotiated before hand but their problem, very much like Mitch and Jim is to sign max free agents which requires hoarding their cap space. The Lakers haven’t shown that they’re building a winner which would attract free agents but instead they’d rather let guys walk for nothing for the chance to throw money at guys


Tempy
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gemfow wrote:
Very well said Indeed, I appreciate a post like this that says more than he’s not worth it. It does depend on where we are at during the rebuild but what can possibly happen is the Lakers decide to let him walk which is a hit against the rebuild and once again the Lakers strike out in free agency due to youth and lack of talent. Teams have to start staggering their contracts very much like NFL teams who also overpay for certain guys but they’re not guaranteed like NBA contracts. A team can’t just keep letting guys walk for nothing because it sets the team back. If Randle walks then you’re left with Kuzma and Nance. Nance will forever be a high flying garbage man who misses easy shots and Kuzma shows flashes of a guy who can be damn good but he may not develop either, you just don’t know. This idea of going after birds in a bush when you have birds in your hand hasn’t worked out well for us.

Exactly, rather than retain assets and have something to offer in trades, the obsession is to chase for a star and be left hanging when teams want to trade and rebuild. The Mavs have had huge amount of cap space every year and they have got worse year on year.

The NBA has completely changed from the days of old. Players don't need big markets for endorsements or shoe deals. The ease of travel means they can live where ever they want in the off season. Players don't care for rivalries any more, they would rather team up and win than go it alone and be the man.


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