The sad predictable, inevitable end of Kobe Bean Bryant.

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SPQR
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Before the Laker’s game with Memphis tonight, the players had a meeting to air their grievances. That meeting was talked about on ESPN after the game. Among one of the issues brought up was Kobe Bryant asking Dwight Howard if he had a problem playing with him because Kobe takes so many shots. It is telling about just where this team is and how irreversible this situation is that Dwight didn’t really answer him. And that is just how low this team is now: Unable to get along, unable to even talk to each other in any kind of constructive way. Just....

MAGICLAKEZ
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Randy,

As hard as I'm trying to add to your post, I just cannot seem to find anything of substance, cause you covered all bases so articulately. It would be a travesty and a huge injustice to your post if I even attempted to add anything. This post echoes my thoughts/sentiments and I wish I could have penned my thoughts in the same structured manner...cause I get overboard and I'm all over the place when it comes to writing about Kobe and his extravagances..lol. There is so much of anguish and exasperation each time I discuss Kobe, for the pain and hurt which he has inflicted on me and other laker fans, during his turbulent and tempestuous tenure with the lakers.

i'm glad someone had the testicular fortitude to do it. Wish I could rep you, however the system is not allowing me to do it for some strange reason (probably got nixed by Kobe or his fans)..lol....This is probably the 'MVP' post of this entire debacle of a season.

Christiannoel
votes: 0
Serious Laker Fan
Posts: 203

For me, the Lakers lost it when we traded our leaders that had the charisma and the balls to face Bryant head on and will not relent.

When Lamar and D Fish were traded, they traded away the only shackles that could control and subdue a deadly snake.

This is a very long off season.

dakara
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Great post!

I can't believe he is the same he was 10 yrs ago!

Lebron, Wade, Bosh - all had to sacriface when they decided to play together. They won rings!

Big three in Boston - look at stats of KG, Allen and Pierce - all lowered their stats because of the some good reason - and that was payed with some rings!

Now, when we have big 3 or 4 - I see same Kobe! 27/77 shooting last three games, consecutive games with 30+ pts. So, Gasol and Dwight was players who let him lead.

BUT IT DOESN'T WORK, RIGHT?!

So, Kobe need to change his attitude! But, his ego won't let it... If you ask me - trading him away would be solution! But...

MemphisLakerToni
votes: 3
Casual Laker Fan
Posts: 114

SPQR,

I have been a Kobe fan since he got there. He is my favorite player on the team. Sadly, everything you wrote was dead on and you put it so eloquently. In the real world "THE BLACK MAMBA" can kill you with 1 strike in Kobe's world "the black mamba" no longer has fangs, however, he is still poisonous.

Yes Derek was old and should have not been starting, but he was the only person that kept Bryant in check. Durant is a STAR but I believe Fisher helped him to to understand how to be a leader when it comes to playing for a championship.

trialsNtribulations
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Kobe will forever remain a winner in my eyes regardless of the demise of this once great Franchise.

KareemAlcindor
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dakara wrote:
Great post!

I can't believe he is the same he was 10 yrs ago!

Lebron, Wade, Bosh - all had to sacriface when they decided to play together. They won rings!

Big three in Boston - look at stats of KG, Allen and Pierce - all lowered their stats because of the some good reason - and that was payed with some rings!

Now, when we have big 3 or 4 - I see same Kobe! 27/77 shooting last three games, consecutive games with 30+ pts. So, Gasol and Dwight was players who let him lead.

BUT IT DOESN'T WORK, RIGHT?!

So, Kobe need to change his attitude! But, his ego won't let it... If you ask me - trading him away would be solution! But...

Sacrifice? Wow, Kobe has sacrificed his game for YEARS during the 3 peat with Shaq and Co. He also sacrificed his game when they went to 3 straight finals (08,09,10) and won 2 of them. Who do you think was the facilitator of those finals? He speaks on how Phil ASKED him to sacrifice his game in order to win.You compare him to the Big 3s of the NBA and make it seem like Kobe never sacrificed when he really did. Lebron sacrificed? what exactly did Bron sacrifice? Joining a superpower team IN THEIR PRIMES and leading them to a championship? Thats sacrifice? That's not sacrifice, thats taking the EASIER road.

With that said, this thread in on point, Kobe is the gift and curse of himself.

jsales41
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I'm sorry but this is foolish. Just come out & say I don't like Kobe. 1st off Fisher was traded bc he's old. He was a 3rd string for the Thunder but a starter for LA. LO is Clippers 9th best player, he was Lakers 3rd best player? Bynum didn't leave bc of Kobe, he was traded for Dwight. And as for Shaq how many more rings does he have than Kobe? How many teams did he impact after he left LA? He played with a young Nash & Amare, Wade, KG, Rondo, Ray Allen, PP & only has 1 ring to show for it? Kobe who's best teammate is Pau has 2 rings. Lakers had one bad season (losing to the World Champ Mavs) after being in the finals 3 years in a row. What does the front office do? They blow the team up. Get rid of anything Phil Jackson adding older and older players, trading our key guys and finally giving away all of their trade picks. Look at this roster Metta, Clark ( who didn't play for Orlando) and even Steve Nash wouldn't start for most contenders in the NBA. Look at the shooting % of the players. Only 4 other players are shooting over 40% & 2 shooting over 50%( Nash and Dwight). Now to the issue of Kobe, he is a shooting guard. His job is to shoot the ball! Kobe is almost shooting 47% this year & he is guarding the opponents PG bc Steve Nash cannot. Your argument would have some weight to it if every player leaving or traded by LA would have a great impact on the teams they're on now. But other than Barns not one of those players has made an impact. What do you want from Kobe? The man is shooting 47% while guarding the other teams best player. Would you like him to heel the sick, feed the poor & raise the dead lol. Put Kobe on the Heat, Celtics, Spurs, Knicks & any other contenders roster they become top dog.

Shaq
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You will only realize how wrong you are when Kobe leaves LA...till then, I will not go into arguing with you about Kobe Bryant, just wait until that moment

Katie
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Kobe Bryant should have retired after winning his fifth championship.Walking out with your head high is the best way to ride off into the sunset.But then again even Michael Jordan came back after retiring to play for the Wizards.All athletes usually almost always hang on too long.Kobe Bryant is a scorer,like you said.But don't worry Kobe has a contract that will expire in 2014,he will not be back as a Lakers player mark my words.Do you want the Lakers to amnesty Kobe Bryant?Then sign a big time free agent?

je389
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Posts: 300

Blaming Kobe for this season is wrong. He has done some selfish things in the past, and clearly burned bridges with a lot of Lakers fans with all his antics. This season is not his fault though. The talent is so mismatched on this team that it should be a crime against basketball. To make matters worse, the coach is fits even less than the talent. I have never seen such idiotic moves by a FO representing the Lakers. I understand the hatred for Kobe, but he is not this season's downfall.

KING90813
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Casual Laker Fan
Posts: 61

I know Kobe is not perfect and he does have his flaws but to put the full blame on him is just plain STUPID!!!!!!! He is the most unappreciated athlete I've ever seen or can think of........With Kobe its Damn if you do and Damn if you don't.

enjoythegame2
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Lol Jsales41 you hit right on bro.... such great unbiased prospective bro ......Kobe is far from perfect as is the case with every player ever but solely blaming him is asinine.

LuvDaLakers
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I'm glad I'm not alone on feeling the same exact way, great post!

mike
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James sacrificed passing the ball to other players in exchange for Wade and Bosh, who else would do something so heroic? roll Kg and Paul never sacrificed their game either, of course their stats went down when they have a coach who knows how to use them.

We seen how amazing this team can play before we hired Mike D. Trades means nothing at all. No trade will save this team. Mike D had a younger suns team and still couldn't win with the run and gun system. So every Trade and draft talk is useless no matter how it looks on paper or sound coming out. Jim Buss and Mike D is the end of us. Lets hope Kobe and Dwight decide to ignore the coach and play the way they were hoping to play together. Mike D said after the last game ''They out ran us'' Shocked That means he has no plans on changing the system. I believe Jim buss wants to destroy the Lakers and rebuild it in his own image. A joke

Saint777
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Same old story... Some people just want to blame every thing on Kobe because things are not working out in the Laker land.... But when they win same people praise him and call him the best player in the world... I'm sorry but i 100% disagree with this post.

Kobe is a contender, he takes his job very seriously, not like other players like Howard. All he wants from his teammates is to give there 100%, If you cant give your 100% then you do not deserve to win, simple as that. After the third championship Shaq was not giving his 100% when he came to the season 30lb overweight and slow so Kobe called him out. Bynum never gave his 100%, ever. So Kobe called him out. If the two player had been giving 100% when they played with Kobe they would have had 7-8 championships.

If he was so awful how did he lead this team to 7 NBA finals and 5 championships? How many other players do you know that did that... Not every ones personality is the same.... Jordan was exactly the same, same attitude.

Howard has a great personalty, what has that gotten him?

I would take Kobe's personality any day over any player in the league right now.... I would take Kobe at 34 over Howard at 25 any day...

KS_v2
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Posts: 1871

Let's wait till the season is done before we start blowing our trumpets shall we???

The team doesn't seem to be doing too well right now from the looks of things and I haven't had the time recently to watch the games or follow the Lakers BUT I have seen stranger things than us making the POs happen.

Also, how the hell does Kobe crush players when players like LBJ, Butler, Odom, Barnes, Metta, Pau, Fisher etc. claim they learnt from his mentality which helped them become better players????

makeman
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Good post and all true.

And like I've said before Kobe not going to have my teammates at his hall of fame induction

Hollywood_Randy
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Kobe is Kobe, and has always consistently been Kobe. The only thing that has made Kobe difficult to play with for guys like Shaq, Bynum and now Howard is the expectation he has of them, to work just as hard as he does. Granted, as every person is different, it is an unrealistic expectation to think everyone should work hard as him, BUT it's the same intensity and expectation that Michael Jordan had of his teammates. Many of those guys disliked playing with MJ. IN both cases, it wasn't until PHil Jackson came that he was able to work with the personalities and get everyone to understand one another and work together. With Phil Jackson, both Kobe and MJ, through their intensity and expectations actually pushed everyone on the team to elevate their play. Shaq was lazy and bull headed till Phil came to translate Kobe, Bynum was ULTRA Lazy and immature but notice he always played a little harder when Kobe would give him jabs. When you watch interviews with any teammates, or hear guys talking about Kobe when they played with him in those championship years. They always comment on Kobe's work ethic and how it inspired them to push even harder. Give some credit to Fisher, because he was able to "translate Kobe" to the team as well. You all talk about how they were able to TAKE Kobe on, but it's not like Kobe just wants things his way. Think of it more as a LANGUAGE Barrier. KObe only understand one way to play basketball, it's the only language he talks or understands. Is that a bad thing? Only if you are expecting Kobe to be like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, or Kareem, in the way that those guys understood every language of basketball, and you got a....

Lakerman32
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Sad to say but I also think Kobe is holding this team back. Next season and a half are gonna suck.

Embarassed

KB24*BM
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How about we blame the real person responsible for this mess, JIM BUSS.

People seem to forgot that we have been in a downhill spiral from when Jim Buss wanted to do a house clean of all personnel who were connected with this team for years.

Then he hired Mike Brown and D'Antoni

Kobe barely changed for 17 years and yet We still produced as a team and won 5 championship. Lakers have done a great job coping with this so called "Kobe EGO problem"

Like I said, how about we blame the real culprit.

SPQR
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I want to address some of the comments here on this volatile subject.

Roman, thanks for the nice words. But it sucks getting them on this type of issue. Some posts I love writing, some I hate. This is one I hate. But I call em as I see em, no matter whether I like it or if its unpopular.

MemphisToni,

Thank you too for your remarks. You and I see basketball in much the same way. Like you, I loved Kobe Bryant. I watched his whole career and he astounded me. And when it came down to Kobe or Shaq, as much as I loved Shaq too, I was happy we kept Kobe and let Shaq walk. But you also have to follow events as they are. Kobeball is not working working any longer. It hasn’t for three years. And as the leader of this team, it’s incumbent upon him to change the things he can, if its not working. And he won’t. And that’s a bad thing.

Daktari,

Thank you too. And I agree, at this point, he needs to change. But he won’t. And that’s the sad part of it all. Because it’s the one thing he can do to see if we can improve on a dreadful situation. The one thing he can control: His game.

Makeman, luvdalakers,

Thank you too for the nice words.

Quote:

Sacrifice? Wow, Kobe has sacrificed his game for YEARS during the 3 peat with Shaq and Co.

KareemAlcindor, I do want to talk more about your interesting comment. Let’s look closer at those times. When Kobe came here, the same year Shaq did, Shaq was already a monster. One of the top four players in ball, soon to be head and shoulders the best player in ball. Kobe was an 18 year old kid who was on the bench much of the time and played like an 18 year old kid when he was on the floor. Shaq was the indisputable best player on this team. By the time Kobe’s game developed, he couldn’t try to play that pure Kobeball as we know it now. Because if he had, he would have run off the team. Shaq was just that good. But look what happened as soon as Kobe got a hole to go through. When Shaq started to slip, all those simmering tensions between them blew up and became untenable. And witness Kobe’s remark, “I’m tired of playing in Shaq’s shadow.” As soon as Kobe saw a chance to take over this team, he did it. It became apparent it was him or me. And rightfully, it became Kobe. And since the day Shaq left, this team has played Kobeball, in the good times and bad, with good teammates and all stars, through five coaches. The only reason Kobe couldn’t play Kobeball with the young Shaq was the reasons I enumerated. He wanted to. That’s why he and Shaq had so many problems. So it wasn’t that he gladly shared or sacrificed for Shaq, he had to. He had no choice back then.

Quote:

You will only realize how wrong you are when Kobe leaves LA...till then, I will not go into arguing with you about Kobe Bryant, just wait until that moment

Shaq,

I’m not sure what to make of that oblique comment. It can be interperated in two ways that I see. If you are saying Kobe will leave here and lead another team to a title, I will tell for a fact, he won’t. Not at 34 playing Kobeball. You say you will not argue the point with me and that’s fine. We really can't yet. Only time will tell what happens. If you do return at some later date to revisit it with me, the only thing you will be able to say at that time is, “You were right.”

If you are saying that when Kobe leaves, I will discover how great and unusual player he was, I won’t have to wait till then. I watched him his whole career. I already know how great he is. A once in lifetime player.

Some of you say it is ridiculous for me to blame only Kobe. I would ask you to reread the post. I have said there are many other factors involved in this mess. D’Antonio, the FO, age, Howard..etc. They have all been addressed here over and over again. My post just happened to address our leader, Kobe, and what part he has in it.

Finally, I know many people disagree with what I wrote. Some for basketball reasons, like Hollywood Randy in his fine post, others simply because of their emotional investment in Kobe.

So I want to address HollywoodRandy, KS V2 and all the others here in this last statement I make. And I would ask to read and think about what I say devoid of emotion. Read what I am about to say and think about it carefully.

First off, I know this team’s problems are not just Kobe. But I am talking about what he can do, as a single player, to help turn this around. Just on a pure, logical level. First off, this is not about Kobe’s past or his championships success. It’s about the last two years and the bottoming out this year. In the last few years of failure, we have had five players who have been in all star games, Drew, Pau, Metta, Nash and Howard say obliquely or directly that this team needs to spread the wealth, to play as team. Now that is five all star caliber players saying the same thing. There is a reason those players said it, right? Now playing it this way, with Kobeball, the last three years, it has not worked, right? I think we can agree on that. And this year, it has hit its nadir, right? I think we can agree on that.

At this point, we have nothing to lose trying anything, right? So I would ask each of you, since this team cannot get worse, since it has nothing to lose, why wouldn’t our leader at this desperate hour, finally listen to those teammates and say, “OK, this isn’t working, let me try it that way,” just to see what happens? Why wouldn’t he? And what possible reason, given what is happening now, should prevent that? What would be the harm, if for a month, for two, Kobe really, truly, honestly tried to play it different? If he did average 22, or 20, or god forbid 18 points a game and let the others have their shot at having a bigger role, of playing as team, without Kobeball? Given what his happening here, given what those all star teammates have said, given that things can’t really get worse, can any of you give me one good reason why our leader shouldn’t try it that way, finally, just to see if it can help the team?

Kobe Bryant was asked last night, “Do you think this can be turned around?” He answered, “Yes.” Then he was asked, “How?” And he said, “I don’t know.” And see, there is the rub. He doesn’t know. He hasn’t heard what his teammates have said, he is oblivious to it and to trying to change the things he can. There is something he can try to do, as the leader of this team, as an individual player, totally apart from D'Antoni, the FO and all the other problems involved here to turn this around.

But his ego won't let him.

GhostNugget
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I hope Kobe doesn't go out like PJ did.

LALayup
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As awesome as Kobe is, he's a ball stopper. There's really no denying it. He always has been. But I understand that it's a two-way street here. He likes to have the ball AND everyone on his team goes into a hypnotic trance: MUST give Kobe the ball...MUST give Kobe the ball NOW! They are driven to give it to him regardless of the circumstance. They don't even understand why it somehow feels so demeaning inside. But it drones on game after game, year after year. I remember a poignant interview with Lamar Odom talking about the difficulty of playing with Kobe. Mind you, he was actually praising Kobe and his will to play the game HARD. But he said the secret of playing well with him is learning how and when to "just say NO" on giving up the ball to him right away every time down the court. There are VERY few players who learn that about Kobe because both his talent and his demeanor absolutely demand giving him the ball whenever he wants it. And of course he ALWAYS wants it. I've said it way too many times, but I really could not care less about how many times Kobe shoots the ball. That's the wrong focus. But I care deeply about how he goes about getting shots and the overall involvement of the team in the process. Kobe is really very good at working away from the ball, and no one is a better finisher. But the Lakers very seldom use him in that manner. Instead it's iso after iso, possession after possession, year after year, with teammates in that familiar trance--standing around and "watching him do his thing" as Earl Clark recently put it. The poor young guy is going into that hypnotic trance himself! It's inevitable. And....

Shaq
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SPQR, Although I said I wouldn't talk about Kobe and his end anymore, I will do it once more just because of respect to your post and the way you analyzed your opinion. First of all what I meant by "you''ll regret what you're saying when Kobe leaves" is the 2nd of the meanings you gave: I am sure that all these people blaming Kobe will really miss Kobe, not only his undoubtful talent and skills, but also Kobe's personality, since this is what we are talking about. This teams has the identity of Kobe's competitiveness, toughness, clutchiness and devotion to the game every night, something that you are not goint to find in any other player in the NBA right now. It is something very abstract and very inspecific- it is not like talking about rebounds and 3points and assists, it is about mentality and that's why I do not insist on giving you to understand what exactly I mean, since this will only happen when the Lakers become a team with talented players but without the identity given by their leader. Leave it on the corner for the moment... Second of all, I'll go on with what I didn't like on your post and on your general opinion about the topic. Yes, you keep refering that it is not only Kobe who is responsible for this year's performances...Yes you said that Howard, Mitch, D'Antoni, J.Buss, Nash etc. are to blame as well. But the topic's title is "The SAD and INEVITABLE end ..." of Kobe who you present as responsible for the departure of Shaq,Bynum and the frustration of Howard and to whom you keep refering as EGOCENTRIC player who cares only about personal stats and not his team. If somebody that has no idea about NBA comes and reads your....

DFishSuperFan
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SPQR, I wish everyone would go back and look at your old posts because they seem to forget how much of this you have predicted before the season started and throughout. I liked how you brought up the issues with Shaq, then Bynum, and now Howard. Doesn't matter who Kobe has been paired with he's always wanted to be the unquestionable number one guy. When I think of Kobe's career I imagine a man seeking to be on the highest part of the NBA mountain and never wanting to leave that spot. Early on, to the top of the mountain Kobe stepped on a few toes and took a few selfish shots but more noticeably he used his speed, athleticism, unparalleled training, and fearlessness to win three championships, only to still be number two on his own team. I'm sure Kobe loved winning those first three championships but his goal was to be at the very top of the mountain second to none. So then came the 2004 Finals when Kobe virtually shot the Lakers out of the series and a possible fourth championship. I remember a reporter asking Shaq after a game, "The team was going through you offensively and it seemed to be working, what happend?" Shaq responded, "Story of my life..." So basically in order for Kobe to be number 1 he had to take all the shots regardless of the outcome. He had to step on Shaq's face to boost himself to the top and it worked. Shaq left, the Lakers were Kobe's team, and he went on to have two extraordinary scoring seasons of 35 and 31 points per game averages, finally at the top of the mountain. It took a while but after they put some great players around him he eventually went on to win two of....

SourceCode
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Posts: 3714

I feel shaq explained it perfectly here; steve smith makes a valid point as well ..

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... lakers.nba

GQue24
votes: 1
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Posts: 140

Epic failure - stop the cliche talking point of blaming Kobe for everything. D12 is responsible for himself. Nash is playing terrible , coach D is high on prescription pills & wont change his wheelchair pride, Pau has mentally checked out & is not coming back. Injuries & a foolish front office are to blame for this miserable season. Not Kobe.

LALayup
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GQue24 wrote:
Epic failure - stop the cliche talking point of blaming Kobe for everything. D12 is responsible for himself. Nash is playing terrible , coach D is high on prescription pills & wont change his wheelchair pride, Pau has mentally checked out & is not coming back. Injuries & a foolish front office are to blame for this miserable season. Not Kobe.

GQue24, I may have missed something, but it doesn't really seem like the focus of this thread has been so much to place blame on Kobe. Flip it and make it positive instead if you don't see it that way.

It's more about what Kobe can do to change his approach to the team game in order to turn things around. Thankfully, Kobe is good enough to be able to have a major impact if he changes his approach. He's a very self-willed and unbelievably determined guy. But if his team sees him willing to take a more unified approach to games, it could--at the very least COULD--have a dramatic and positive impact. It sure ain't working like it's going right now!

userpete1037
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SourceCode wrote:
I feel shaq explained it perfectly here; steve smith makes a valid point as well ..

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... lakers.nba

I second this. Shaq was right on point with his assessment.

jsales41
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This forum is a fail. You can’t say Kobe is a ball stopper w/ no explanation. There are no options on this roster for Kobe to turn to. Seriously you guys need a come to Jesus moment and look at this roster. It’s a really bad roster offensively. Other than Kobe & Nash who is a perimeter threat? Kobe worked great with team USA. He passed the ball, took less shots and was a great team player bc he trusted his teammates. When Kobe is off the court this team is bad. If Kobe wasn’t shooting 47% and playing hard night after night while his teammates show no effort you might have a point. But Kobe is playing at an elite level on a bad team.

Clippers2012
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@ SPQR. let me start off by saying great post. i think you mentioned a great reason why people have reacted so hostile, emotional investment. For many people here Kobe has been the main franchise player they are familiar with. sure there may be some old enough fans here that go back to the magic days or the wilt days, but primarily i belive the bulk of the posters here are those who knew only kobe. kobe has been an integral part of this franchise and he is even on pace to break many of MJs records. so not only do people get offended that you criticize the only face of the lakers they know but they also feel as you are criticizing the one player that can potentially be the face of the nba, and laker lore is intertwined with kobe. i completely agree with your post, but i also know that when kobe is criticized domt expect anything nice to come your way, even if the critcism is from a well respected fellow laker fan as yourself

SPQR
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Dfish, I want to really thank you for those kinds words. It really makes my heart feel good. You know, its so funny how some fans just get so pissed off when I am right about something I predicted long ago. Yeah I saw this coming long ago and mentioned it. But that doesn't make me a genius. It makes me wonder, since everyone else was watching the same Kobe I was, for over a decade, seeing what he was like, why couldn't they see it coming? It was as plain as day, the fact that his ego would never let him give up things to a team even when he got old. When I talked about this before to some members, they would say, "Oh no, when Kobe gets old, he will give it up and become more a team player." And I would think, Are we talking about the same guy? Kobe Bryant? Gee, maybe Ill huff some gas and try to damage my brain so I don't see things clearly. Im sure that would please some of my LTB brothers, lol. Dfish, Your trip down memory lane in your post is correct. The saddest part about all this is that Kobe has sooo much. Five rings, all those records, all that adulation. I mean he's like a god. But even now, at 34, with his team disintigrating around him, he just won't do the one thing he has left to try to help turn this team around some. The thing his teamates have mentioned over and over again. He just refuses to do it. And man, that tells how screwed up and terrified he is inside of not being The Man. He cannot deal with that concept at all. It freaks him out to the bone. It really is one of....

mike
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Posts: 1000

jsales41 wrote:
This forum is a fail. You can’t say Kobe is a ball stopper w/ no explanation. There are no options on this roster for Kobe to turn to. Seriously you guys need a come to Jesus moment and look at this roster. It’s a really bad roster offensively. Other than Kobe & Nash who is a perimeter threat? Kobe worked great with team USA. He passed the ball, took less shots and was a great team player bc he trusted his teammates. When Kobe is off the court this team is bad. If Kobe wasn’t shooting 47% and playing hard night after night while his teammates show no effort you might have a point. But Kobe is playing at an elite level on a bad team.

47% with a rise in assist and still they say he don't pass enough? lol How about we start matching his attempted assists with the one's the team made. He have more than 8 a game. Looking for Dwight at the cost of good rhythm is selfish? Our pick and rolls suck even when Kobe not involved in them.

How is it people Mention Shaq, Bynum and Gasol and not mention they actually have rings despite how bad of teammate Kobe suppose to be. I guess when Meeks our Main SG when kobe is gone they will need some new excuses for having a bad coach.

Hollywood_Randy
votes: 40
Big-Time Laker Fan
Age: 45
Posts: 793
Location: Hollywood


Repped High Quality Post
SPRQ The answer to your question is because Kobe only knows how to be Kobe at 100% of his abilities. It's the same reason he's always been able to play through excruciating pain. Like my analogy of Language, he only speaks the one language. While on level, yes, it is MUCH harder to get the right pieces for a team around him, it's the price the Lakers organization has to pay to be able to USE Kobe and all his greatness. Yes, there is some ego involved with Kobe, but that what fuels that fire inside of him that anyone has rarely seen. But what makes him different than someone like Stephan Marbury is that Kobe's ultimate goal is to win. Because most people just don;t understand Kobe's POV or psychology, because it is very unique from most any athlete, people often say that Kobe is ONLY interested in his own stats. Which to me is a short cut to thinking, or the person that would say that chooses to ignore all the evidence that shows Kobe's main goal and will is to win. Looking at the past championships is important to this fact. If Kobe only cared about his own stats and image, he'd just be another Stephan Marbury, ringless, full of himself, and delusional. What it comes down to, and this is the reason so many people compare Kobe to Jordan, is that Kobe is one type of guy, that's all he knows, just like Jordan. Look at Jordan when he played for the Wizards, he didn't change a damn thing about his game there, but people were so excited to see him play and there was no expectations of the WIz, no one really cared. during his tenure with the Bulls, Jordan never really changed who he was either, maybe....

ralppcobarde
votes: 28
LNS HOF Bronze
Age: 25
Posts: 6183

rp.gif
its true that we lost that edge by Kobe Bryant, and he is not the same anymore,not the best closer anymore too. he gives it all. and i tend to disagree that he will still rely on his ego when he had Chris Paul,Lebron or Durant as a teammate that would be unstoppable. they work better than primadonna Howard. Im surprised how bad Howard has been in terms of skill and attitude and makes me respect Bynum even though( he is flawed too. ) you can blame the era of centers LOL. this team is a mess since 2011 and i blame the FO for that. Kobe and MWP are the only one giving it all.i rather continue to play than pout like Gasol and Howard did. that will get you nowhere. the FO continue to make stupid moves , and NAsh giving up 5 picks considerably because we gave up Sessions for nothing, he is been crap same with the coach. Howard has been nothing too, Gasol is old and slow. the bench is horrendous. can Kobe the leader, if he shares the ball to Dwight. do you think we will win? not to mention our system is based on the perimeter than post ups? see Gasol and Howard, both statistically have downward production since D'Antoni take over. fire the coach first and the rest except Bernie. he is the interim coach the rest of the season. Best case scenario, Jim resigns, Mitch was fired. replaced by Jeanie and Jerry West would be rehired. period. DR. Jerry Buss must take over now, and do this on one week. i understand your post, how i wish Kobe was traded. and have another ring to chase for.... i truly accept my favorite player is down. but then again the hardwork for 17....

KingsofLA
votes: 0
Casual Laker Fan
Posts: 178

Anyone should punch themselves in the face for blaming Kobe for anything. You can't change a players mentality or his game, he was built that way and that's his game. Take it or leave it. Thanks to him you've witnessed the greatest player since MJ to bless the hardwood. Lakers fans have been blessed to achieve 5 rings/parades under his reign here in LA. You Kobe haters will soon realize to appreciate him once he retires. He doesn't have to be the best teammate or win the damn citizens award, the man can simply play basketball, that's what I watch him for. Its not to get along with everyone on the team, its to drop 81 points in single game, win 5 rings, and retire as on of the GOAT. damn kobe haters, always blame him when things are bad, but when things are good they can't say a damn thing.

lakernet79
votes: 35
Big-Time Laker Fan
Posts: 591


Repped High Quality Post
Laughable but expected. Maybe it’s how you say things like “his diehard fans will counter with the same old tired argument…”, but then you come back and the same old tired criticisms. The stench of hypocrisy is just nauseating. I could just fill this post with all my old tired comments as they are still valid to these old tired critiques, but I will try to present everyone with new comments instead. You can’t have a title of a thread by “The sad predictable, inevitable end of Kobe Bean Bryant” and then say “I am not blaming all of this on Kobe…”. You spend 2 sentences saying it’s D’Antoni, Mitch and Buss’ fault and then 2 pages saying how it’s Kobe’s fault. You can’t play both sides of the fences and feign that you have respect for Kobe in the hopes that it will make your comments more enlightened and unbiased and consequently more valid. And let’s be honest, the only reason to say you respect someone in the same post where you mercilessly bash him is to pretend to be unbiased. You say Kobe is the only common factor in Shaq and Bynum leaving? Here’s something that will blow your mind, what’s the common factor in Shaq and Bynum winning rings? Kobe Bryant. I guess you are one of those fans that believe those pointless stats like, if the Lakers play a team with an odd amount of letters in their name on the first day of a winter solstice in a leap year, they are 0-12, therefore they will lose tonight’s game regardless of who they are actually playing. Another common factor in Shaq and Bynum? They were both lazy players that never maximized their potential and....

KS_v2
votes: 20
Die-Hard Laker Fan
Posts: 1871
Start of the season : Kobe played off the ball and was content to pick his spots and try to play in a controlled manner. Result : 1-4 It isn't a lack of trying out different things that's been Kobe's mistake so far this season. He has tried driving to the hoop more, shooting more perimeter shots, getting Dwight going early, letting Nash handle the ball, passing it to our shooters and playing both a good considerate leader and a badass one at various points of the season but we haven't been getting the results. He's tried Ding up the opposing team's best player and reducing his offensive output but the team still went back to him on O and didn't even try to resist his craving for shooting the ball. His off-ball D has been lacking but it's always been a problem for any team that hasn't played together enough on that end. He's also playing heavy minutes. Part of the blame falls on Mike D'Antoni and part of it falls on Kobe. The only thing which he hasn't tried so far is to play like a pure point guard who can defend. That, despite his efforts, is never gonna be within his grasp. I'm only going by the boxscores in our recent games but what really has hurt us by the looks of things is how our bench went from halfway decent to pathetic again mid-season which has led Kobe to take up more of the offensive burden on his shoulders leading to a dip in his efficiency and a spike in his shot-jacking. Sigh. I've repeated this point since Kobe became a superstar : The onus falls on the team to hold back Kobe's aggression. Kobe cannot make the shot for them. When others don't hit their shots, Kobe stops passing it to....

SPQR
votes: 291
LNS HOF Bronze

Posts: 9286
Location: Pennsylvania
HollywoodRandy, I just used part of your nice post. You make many nice points. But they don't address the reality of what is happening here. You say Kobe know how to only use 100 percent of his abilities. Thats fine. But you mean he is so completely ossified in his game and thinking he can't use his abilities in other ways? So on a team that is dropping like a bag of cement fallen from a truck, he can't for once change up and do what his other teamates have suggested for years to see if it will help turn things around? Really? Well, Randy, if that is the case, then Kobe is one of most unadaptable, mentally moribund and yes, dumbest athletes ever. And as a leader of this current team, he is a zephyr. A zero. Or, maybe his ego is just all that. Maybe that says it best. You have to look at the present situtation Randy, and so does Kobe. You comment that Kobe only goes 100 percent with what he does is neither and legit reason or an excuse for him not to try a different way with the nightmare season we are having. I understand what you are saying Randy, but it doesn't hold water this year. Lakernet79, What do you think our record is? When I read your post, I have a feeling Kobe is leading us to the playoffs. I mean no offense meant, but are you watching this years team? Also, I don't say Kobe is the ONLY factor in Drew or Shaq leaving. Where did I say that? I said Kobe has had problems with the players who had the most ability to challenge him for dominance of this team. Thats a fact. I know you don't like it or its implications, but thats not my....

lakedson
votes: 8
Laker GM
Posts: 3417

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I'm not in denial stages anymore...Kobe has lost it, not totally but a lot...

  1. Not playing good on team defense (communicating)

  2. Not playing good individual D, can't guard any elite guards or PG anymore.

  3. Not playing wise specially on the crucial minutes of the game...he costs a lot of turnovers and playing hero ball.

Us fans will have a good time taking pictures on Kobes statue outside the Staples but as of now we have to deal with him as he keeps crashing to the ground!

lakernet79
votes: 35
Big-Time Laker Fan
Posts: 591
So is this what you do when you lose arguments? You put words into people’s mouths and you contradict your very own points in an attempt to discredit my own points? You specificly imply in your 7th paragraph of your original post that the common factor in Shaq and Bynum leaving was Kobe. That is a direct indication that you think he was the sole reason for those two leaving the team and it was all Kobe’s fault. Nowhere in your rant did you say there could have been other reasons for their departure leading everyone to think Kobe is the sole reason. So why back track on your own point now? And you’re right, I don’t false implications. I don’t like people saying “The problem is clearly Kobe” when it is far more complicated than that and he is hardly worthy of a post entitled “The sad predictable, inevitable end of Kobe Bean Bryant”. It’s beyond ridiculous. If you want to say something valid like Kobe doesn’t play D as well as he used to or Kobe can’t finish at the rim like he used to then that’s fine and I have no problem dealing with the reality of it. But throw out garbage and you’ll get responses like you’re getting. And you continually seem to point to our record but let me ask you, has there ever been a player that has performed well on a bad team? Are you saying Kobe in ’04-’05 (the year we didn’t make the playoffs) was a bad player? Are you saying LeBron James in ’04-’05 was bad player because his team didn’t make the playoffs? News flash, players can perform on an elite level on bad teams. And for your....

MAGICLAKEZ
votes: 70
LNS HOF Gold
Posts: 16777
Location: Los Angeles, California
us.gif


Repped High Quality Post
HollywoodRandy, I just used part of your nice post. You make many nice points. But they don't address the reality of what is happening here. You say Kobe know how to only use 100 percent of his abilities. Thats fine. But you mean he is so completely ossified in his game and thinking he can't use his abilities in other ways? So on a team that is dropping like a bag of cement fallen from a truck, he can't for once change up and do what his other teamates have suggested for years to see if it will help turn things around? Really? Well, Randy, if that is the case, then Kobe is one of most unadaptable, mentally moribund and yes, dumbest athletes ever. And as a leader of this current team, he is a zephyr. A zero. Or, maybe his ego is just all that. Maybe that says it best. You have to look at the present situtation Randy, and so does Kobe. You comment that Kobe only goes 100 percent with what he does is neither and legit reason or an excuse for him not to try a different way with the nightmare season we are having. I understand what you are saying Randy, but it doesn't hold water this year. Lakernet79, What do you think our record is? When I read your post, I have a feeling Kobe is leading us to the playoffs. I mean no offense meant, but are you watching this years team? Also, I don't say Kobe is the ONLY factor in Drew or Shaq leaving. Where did I say that? I said Kobe has had problems with the players who had the most ability to challenge him for dominance of this team. Thats a fact. I know you don't like it or its implications, but thats not my....

SPQR
votes: 291
LNS HOF Bronze

Posts: 9286
Location: Pennsylvania
Lose aruguments? Lmao. Once again, are you watching this years team or circa 2010? The losing is going on on the court. Are you watching? You keep bring up these "points" that have nothing to do with the reality of our current situation. Yeah, I know Kobe is the the best player on team. I also know he is not what he was. I also know this season is a nightmare from hell. Do you know those things? But what on earth does him being the best player that have to do with him making changes in his game, in a season that is a disaster, to try something different, that his teammates including Steve Nash, Metta, Gasol and Howard have all mentioned? Can you answer that question for me? Can you answer this one. What do we have to lose if he tries it? Tell, me what do we have to lose? Answer that? A championship? You still think that will happen? Because you see, NOTHING will change if he doesn't. Im not saying if he changes it will turn us around to any large degree. But I know this, if he doesn't, NOTHING will change. So once again, whats the harm in trying? I understand Lakernet79, you love Kobe and the thought of him not scoring in the high 20's just is not something you can take. Even if trying change is something that all logic and common sense, and basketball sense dictates. Ill tell you what, Lakernet79, Kobe will still keep going as he is. Lets both watch the rest of the season. Then we will both know, when the season is over, who lost the arugment, won't we? Its just that simple. Roman, Its a joke. Its laughable. Here we are, dysfunctional laughing stock. Here we have five all stars all saying we need to share the wealth more, be more of....

lakerfrommass
votes: 15
LNS HOF Bronze
Posts: 5022

Randrew

This is always such a fun topic for me personally, and a very touchy one for some fans....

As you're well aware, I'm almost a hypocrite on this issue... I see how Kobe is ALWAYS a ball stopper... Where you and I have disagreed in the past is in regards to FGA's... Now, I may be wrong, but what I think I understand as your point/stance is KOBE SHOOTS TOO MUCH, PERIOD... While I don't think it's that black and white... There is some nights in which Kobe shoots a lot because his mates can't hit water from the bow of the Titantic. There are some nights that Kobe shoots a lot because he is playing stupidly.. He will always take bad shots, that happens in the NBA.... Like I said, I'm like a hypocrite on this issue, I freely admit that.

As you are well aware, I always, always, ALWAYS stated I wanted Bynum to get more touches, because I knew he could carry that offensive load.... Who on this present team should get some added FGA's.... I can't think of a single player.. I don't want Howard getting more touches(unless it's a spoon fed dunk opportunity)... He will either get hacked, and miss his FT's, stripped, or try to throw the ball through the backboard. He doesn't deserve more shots... That brings us to flower.. Flower doesn't deserve more shots either.. He has turned into a 7ft 2guard... Metta? Nash? Jamison?

I don't know Randrew, I just can't force myself to say Kobe shoots to much every game because he's too selfish... I freely admit he does play stupidly & selfishly more often than not, all I trying to convey is sometimes I don't have an issue with it, and sometimes I do..... LOL.......

SPQR
votes: 291
LNS HOF Bronze

Posts: 9286
Location: Pennsylvania

John,

I undertand where you are coming from. I watched Kobe my whole life. But what I am saying is common sense, dictated by what is happening this year. If we were a good team, then I would understand those who want to see Kobeball continue as before.

But we are not. We STINK. This team is falling apart like no other I have seen in decades. On the court and in the locker.

We know, playing Kobeball, we are going nowhere. We know that Pau, Nash, Metta and Dwight have all said things about this having to more of a team, that the responsibilty and scoring has to be spread around more.

Now once again, I don't know if that will effect this team to any great degree. But once again, we know, FOR A FACT, that if Kobe doesn't change it, doesn't do what those players want, if he keeps playing Kobeball, whats going to keep happening here.

So I would ask this question, what is the harm in trying? Name one thing? And I would ask, what rational person will just keep trying-like Kobe is- or advocate trying- like some of his fans are- something that has failed so abysmally?

The answer is obvious. Kobe won't change because then he can't be King Kong scorer any more. And his fans don't want to try that change because they can't stand the thought of him not being King Kong scorer any more. There are no other reasons. Not this year.

There is not a single rational, good reason for Kobe, or any Lakers fan to oppose him doing that change, that his teamates want. Because there is nothing more to lose and only things to gain.

MAGICLAKEZ
votes: 70
LNS HOF Gold
Posts: 16777
Location: Los Angeles, California
us.gif

SPQR wrote:
Lose aruguments?

Lmao.

Once again, are you watching this years team or circa 2010?

The losing is going on on the court. Are you watching?

You keep bring up these "points" that have nothing to do with the reality of our current situation.

Yeah, I know Kobe is the the best player on team. I also know he is not what he was. I also know this season is a nightmare from hell. Do you know those things?

But what on earth does him being the best player that have to do with him making changes in his game, in a season that is a disaster, to try something different, that his teammates including Steve Nash, Metta, Gasol and Howard have all mentioned?

Can you answer that question for me?

Can you answer this one. What do we have to lose if he tries it?

Tell, me what do we have to lose? Answer that? A championship? You still think that will happen?

Because you see, NOTHING will change if he doesn't.

Im not saying if he changes it will turn us around to any large degree. But I know this, if he doesn't, NOTHING will change. So once again, whats the harm in trying?

I understand Lakernet79, you love Kobe and the thought of him not scoring in the high 20's just is not something you can take. Even if trying change is something that all logic and common sense, and basketball sense dictates.

Ill tell you what, Lakernet79, Kobe will still keep going as he is. Lets both watch the rest of the season.

Then we will both know, when the season is over, who lost the arugment, won't we?

Its just that simple.

Roman,

Its a joke. Its laughable. Here we are, dysfunctional laughing stock. Here we have five all stars all saying we need to share the wealth more, be more of a team. And here is our "leader" and I use that word tongue in cheek, who ignores his teamates comments, and our pathetic performance, and when asked, What can this team do to turn it around, answers, "I don't know." That says it all. What a pathetic leader he is. What a f*cking ego.

The other thing that says it all is all these desperate Kobephiles who prize above all, seeing Kobe score and get records instead trying the one things he can do as an individual player, himself, to do something different to try salavage something.

It is their final denoument that shows above all else, it is Kobe and scoring and records that mean more to them than the Lakers team. I wonder what these "fans" will do when Kobe retires?

A two way classic example of an athletes ego totally out of control, and the fans who worship the ground he walks one no matter where it leads. And as you said, in this case, take himself and everyone else down with him.

Thanks a ton for the rep Randy! You know even Earl Clark was almost crying in front of the camera and pleading.... almost imploring us to play together like a team. This kid has only just started his career, but he knows and understands what ails us. He also said that it was not feasible for teammates to stand around and just watch Kobe shoot that frickin ball. That's like a "slap" on the face of Kobe and all those who beg of him to shoot more and chase personal records and glory. Another reason why Kobe behaves like this is because of those blind followers who blow smoke up his a$$... That fuels the mamba to further recklessness.

lakerfrommass
votes: 15
LNS HOF Bronze
Posts: 5022

SPQR wrote:
John,

I undertand where you are coming from. I watched Kobe my whole life. But what I am saying is common sense, dictated by what is happening this year. If we were a good team, then I would understand those who want to see Kobeball continue as before.

But we are not. We STINK. This team is falling apart like no other I have seen in decades. On the court and in the locker.

We know, playing Kobeball, we are going nowhere. We know that Pau, Nash, Metta and Dwight have all said things about this having to more of a team, that the responsibilty and scoring has to be spread around more.

Now once again, I don't know if that will effect this team to any great degree. But once again, we know, FOR A FACT, that if Kobe doesn't change it, doesn't do what those players want, if he keeps playing Kobeball, whats going to keep happening here.

So I would ask this question, what is the harm in trying? Name one thing? And I would ask, what sane, normal person will just keep trying, or advocate trying, something that has failed so abysmally?

There is not a single rational, good reason for Kobe, or any Lakers fan to oppose him doing that change, that his teamates want. Because there is nothing more to lose and only things to gain.

Randrew

Oh I agree with you about Kobe needing to play differently... He is not without blame, I assure you... I yell at my tv quite often because he takes a stupid shot...

Like you, I don't know how much a Kobe change will effect the team either, and I agree he should try to adjust his game in any way to get better results this season...

However, I don't think he'll ever fully change, as you have stated, it's just not possible.

Bottom line Randy, IMO, with our roster I don't see this team doing anything whether Kobe plays "KOBEball" or starts trying to get his mates involved more.

I don't like this roster... What was at times our biggest advantage (our twin towers) is now hurting us.. Pau is damn near useless in the role he's being asked to fill... You know my feeling on pygmy, so I need not say anything, and our bench is the same trash it's been for several seasons now...

Bottom line, IMO, this team isn't going anywhere regardless of how Kobe plays.... Our only saving grace might be trying to orchestrate a trade and get the great Dwight Howard out of Orlando and onto the Lakers ASAP... Uh wait!!!!

SPQR
votes: 291
LNS HOF Bronze

Posts: 9286
Location: Pennsylvania

Baptist,

You and I have shared many thoughts on this team, Howard, Nash and the others both here and plenty more in private. You know we are simpatico on our thoughts. And you may be right that even if Kobe shares it appreciably effect our performance.

But he has to try. Its the only recourse for him, because we know whats happening now isn't going to work.

But of course we both know he won't. And thats a shame on him, our "leader" who is more concerned with being Mr. Alpha Male and scoring than in trying to see if he can salvage something of this season by doing what his teamates have asked and playing it a different way.

Finally, Baptist, I agree that this team cannot contend no matter how they play it. For all the reasons you and I have shared in our many texts before the season and during it.

This team should be burned to the ground. Totally. It should have done after last year, as you and I discussed and agreed last year. Let us bring in new players and use those lottery picks wisely...Oh, wait, other teams will have our lottery picks. Strike that last statement and replace it with, fire Mitch. And fire Jim Buss. Oh..wait, he's the owners son. Strike that last statement. How about Dr. Buss selling the team?

renteria24
votes: 9
Die-Hard Laker Fan
Posts: 1306

us.gif

LALayup wrote:
As awesome as Kobe is, he's a ball stopper. There's really no denying it. He always has been. But I understand that it's a two-way street here. He likes to have the ball AND everyone on his team goes into a hypnotic trance: MUST give Kobe the ball...MUST give Kobe the ball NOW! They are driven to give it to him regardless of the circumstance. They don't even understand why it somehow feels so demeaning inside. But it drones on game after game, year after year.

I remember a poignant interview with Lamar Odom talking about the difficulty of playing with Kobe. Mind you, he was actually praising Kobe and his will to play the game HARD. But he said the secret of playing well with him is learning how and when to "just say NO" on giving up the ball to him right away every time down the court. There are VERY few players who learn that about Kobe because both his talent and his demeanor absolutely demand giving him the ball whenever he wants it. And of course he ALWAYS wants it.

I've said it way too many times, but I really could not care less about how many times Kobe shoots the ball. That's the wrong focus. But I care deeply about how he goes about getting shots and the overall involvement of the team in the process. Kobe is really very good at working away from the ball, and no one is a better finisher. But the Lakers very seldom use him in that manner. Instead it's iso after iso, possession after possession, year after year, with teammates in that familiar trance--standing around and "watching him do his thing" as Earl Clark recently put it. The poor young guy is going into that hypnotic trance himself! It's inevitable.

And so we conclude that everyone else on the team is CRAP. We even conclude that Steve Nash is CRAP. Just CRAP everywhere we say. But all along I believe it's simply in how we go about playing the game. But players don't understand the trance they are in and even coaches feed right into it as well. Kobe doesn't seem to understand the trance either! Kobe's will, determination, hard work, and commanding presence is both a blessing and a curse.

EDIT: Randy: oh by the way, awesome post and thread! I meant to say that before I went off on my own tangent there! LOL. Surely somebody on this team is going to be driven to desperation and hopefully that will cause them to take a different approach as you put it. I don't know though. Some things never seem to change.

I fear that the only other alternative that Kobe knows is to go passive to try to get the rest of the team involved. That's an equally bad approach, but he's tried it before.

You were spot on with some points LALayup. I have been saying the same thing all season. I don't care if kobe throws up 25 shots in one game. It's the type of shots that he throws up. There have been times when the offense is running and we go on like a 7-0 run and then kobe shoots a contested three or a fadeaway with 2 guys on him. That's when I put my hands on my head and ask "why kobe why?" Some people like to throw this stat that lebron is only averaging like 2 less shots per game than kobe but look how lebron scores. It is way different from kobe. Lebron has a lot of games where 30 points is a quiet 30 points and then you realize that he had 8 rebs and 8 asst to go along with those stats. My point is, It's the type of shots kobe takes. Quality over quantity

Some people's logic is flawed when they say he has to take these type of shots because everyone stands around.....well duh! When kobe takes consecutive shots in a row, players tend to stand around. I'm guessing they're saying "what's the point in even playing hard for position when he's going to chuck this shot" that's what dwight looks like. It happens no matter who you are though. It happens playing recreational ball. Granted, it's not the NBA but when I meet a guy who just ball hogs everyone else on my team just hangs around the 3 point line. It's a morale thing. This is far from bashing kobe. I just want kobe to take better shots. He doesn't have to go one on two anymore. If this was 27 year old kobe I'd say let him take whatever shot he wants. Of course, there will be some ignorant people who will call me a kobe hater. A kobe hater with profile picture of kobe lol


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