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BaadMaster
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Kobe has yet to play with a top tier -- or even semi top tier -- point guard. The guy has never had a Paxson or a Kerr to open things up for him. Imagine what he would have done had the FO drafted Mo Williams when they had the chance. "We are who we think we are." This team is an old team that will win some games they might expect to lose, and lose games they should be expecterd to win. When you have DFish as your starting point guard, don't expect this team to hoist the Championship Trophy anytime soon. Most of this team is on the downside of their careers. Pau, Kobe, World Peace, Blake, Fisher -- are all past thirty and past their prime. Bynum cannot put two awseome games together back-to-back. He has a 20/20 game and then he gets nine points the next night. He is a good center in a basically centerless League, But he ain't no Dwight Howard. D12 brings it, night after night. And he actually plays -- night after night. Any team that insists on starting the slowest and (almost) oldest point guard in the guard-oriented NBA, clearly has no clue. This is sheer idiocy. Either start Morris and let him learn or find one off the waiver wire. When the Clippers fourth string point guard is better than your starter, you are doing something wrrong. Is this the "Smush Era Part 2" or not?. Either pack it in and rebuild or spend the money and get some serious athletes. This "Smush Era Part 2" with an aging Kobe scoring 39 points to barely beat the Warriors -- in a dull way -- is boring and pointless. Blow the team up, as Magic suggested, and get some young dudes....


KS_v2
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  1. True.

  2. Nope. We're still in a better position for a Chip than the Clips or Dallas but the Thunder are ahead of us at the moment.

  3. The compacted schedule really makes it tough for Bynum.

  4. True........

  5. Kobe has Pau and Bynum. He also has a decent bench. And we're very close to a Finals appearance again. I'll still be cautious until I see us play vs Thunder.

  6. No PAU! Kobe and Pau are STELLAR.

  7. LOL

  8. Kobe hasn't been going 1 on 5 this season at all. Funny how one game can leave such an impression!!!

  9. Pau had a stellar game today. And I thought bigs age very well.....I don't get what you guys expect from Pau!

  10. Being .500 after just 8 games for 4 of which we didn't have our 3rd ( yes. ) best player out and already had a backtobacktoback (while OKC still hasn't ) is pretty much amazing if you ask me. I was sort of expecting a 3-5 start. Also, remember the season LA won 56 games and still won the chip? Their start was waaay worse. Yeah, that team was an insult to our LA tradition....


BaadMaster
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KS_v2 wrote:
10. Being .500 after just 8 games for 4 of which we didn't have our 3rd ( yes. ) best player out and already had a backtobacktoback (while OKC still hasn't ) is pretty much amazing if you ask me. I was sort of expecting a 3-5 start. Also, remember the season LA won 56 games and still won the chip? Their start was waaay worse. Yeah, that team was an insult to our LA tradition....

Well thought out responses. The thing that concerns me the most is that we have arguably the slowest point guard in the NBA as our starter. How the hell can you win the chip with Grampa as your PG? Please explain that to me.


KS_v2
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BaadMaster wrote:

Well thought out responses. The thing that concerns me the most is that we have arguably the slowest point guard in the NBA as our starter. How the hell can you win the chip with Grampa as your PG? Please explain that to me.

We managed to do it in 2010.......

I mean Fish isn't slower than he was in 2010 ( He was already THAT slow lol ) so it would depend on our team D. Remember that DFish wasn't really that bad in the POs on D the last 2 years in the POs. So if team D can somehow grow enough to be good enough to compensate that, I believe he has tremendous value to offer on O and not to mention those hustle plays.

However, if we can get a PG without sacrificing our depth, I wouldn't be against it. But I'd still be pretty happy with the cards I've been dealt. It ain't gonna be easy but it's got a better shot than "hail mary" lol


113
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-I say we keep Pau (unless we can turn him into a bunch of helpful pieces) like Deron or Kyle Lowry + Scola + 2 Houston 1st round picks + possibly Kevin Martin)

-I say we trade Bynum + 1st round pick asap (while his value is so high) for D12

-I say if we roll with a lineup of Blake/Morris/Fish + Kobe + Barnes/Ebanks/Metta + Pau/McBob/Murphy/Caracter + D12 we at least win the west. I say we win the Finals if we get that lineup and we add a good to great PG (maybe Morris can be that PG).


BaadMaster
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113 wrote:
-I say we trade Bynum + 1st round pick asap (while his value is so high) for D12

You got that right!


gemfow
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Repped High Quality Post
Yes, you're right Kobe has never had another perimeter player to ease the burden. Unfortunately Kobe's teammates have never had another perimeter player to create shots for the team. The FO is subpar to me, even when Fish returned I knew he was just temporary but this FO acts as if Fish is 27. I wanted Blake on this team as a backup, I feel he is a capable backup, but he shouldn't backup Fisher. This is a west coast Boston team, we all know it. Still dangerous, but don't have the right pieces to win it all. Boston at least has better balance and a better approach to team play, not the pecking order that this team seems to want established. Now this is where your love and scary stalker-like fascination for Howard has apparently warped your thinking. You are clearly exaggerating just so you can bring Bynum down in people's eyes. First game back, he put up 29 pts 13 reb and 2 blks, 2nd game back he put up 18/16/1 (those two good games also came at the time that Kobe put up his two crappiest games of the season BACK 2 BACK), 3rd game back he puts up 2/22/3, 4th game back he puts in another 21/12/3, 5th game back he puts in 9/16/1. Those were four damn good games in a row, but yet you want to sit up here and nitpick off of one game. That's very petty of you. For fun I'll toss in Howard's stats who brings it every night. G1) 11/15/2 (He brought it big time) G2) 21/7/3 3). G3) 16/24/3 G4) 20/24/4 G5) 19/15/3 I stay at 5 games even though Howard's last two games netted 28 pts a piece in....


KS_v2
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gem,

I just want to add something to point 3.

You disregarded 28point games Howard had back to back because he played it vs bad Cs and hence isn't impressive??? Chicago's interior D isn't worthy?!?!?! He did it vs Noah, better than Kwame Brown. He was just as effective vs a centerless team vs Washington.

If so, Bynum went up against a Chris Andersen who is recovering from knee injury, a Mozgov who doesn't deserve to be on that team, a centerless rocket team and a GS team in which he went 3-9 and Kwame was almost 50% shooting and they usually played small.

If you wanna call what Howard did the last 2 games as not impressive, I can make excuses for anyone and everyone as well in the L.

I just want you to call both of them fairly. Howard had a subpar game vs DET like Bynum had vs GS.

Infact, both are on a similar path right now. Eerily similar.


gemfow
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KSv2: You totally were lost in my point. I said that those 28 point games must not impress him since this is basically a centerless league which were his words, not mine. Baad clearly tried to trivialize Bynum by saying it's a centerless league, the same centerless league that Howard plays in and takes advantage of but he adores Howard. Follow me?


KS_v2
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gemfow wrote:
KSv2: You totally were lost in my point. I said that those 28 point games must not impress him since this is basically a centerless league which were his words, not mine. Baad clearly tried to trivialize Bynum by saying it's a centerless league, the same centerless league that Howard plays in and takes advantage of but he adores Howard. Follow me?

Damn. I really really really am sorry. Embarassed Embarassed

3 cups of coffee every night for the last 2 days and no sleep and travelling probably caught up to me today......

Again, my sincerest apologies. I realized you were being sarcastic in a few other parts of the post but somehow my brain just shut down with that.....

Maybe I'll call it a day sooner than I thought I would lol......


SPQR
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Quote:

  1. Yes, you're right Kobe has never had another perimeter player to ease the burden. Unfortunately Kobe's teammates have never had another perimeter player to create shots for the team. The FO is subpar to me, even when Fish returned I knew he was just temporary but this FO acts as if Fish is 27. I wanted Blake on this team as a backup, I feel he is a capable backup, but he shouldn't backup Fisher.

  2. This is a west coast Boston team, we all know it. Still dangerous, but don't have the right pieces to win it all. Boston at least has better balance and a better approach to team play, not the pecking order that this team seems to want established.

  3. Now this is where your love and scary stalker-like fascination for Howard has apparently warped your thinking. You are clearly exaggerating just so you can bring Bynum down in people's eyes. First game back, he put up 29 pts 13 reb and 2 blks, 2nd game back he put up 18/16/1 (those two good games also came at the time that Kobe put up his two crappiest games of the season BACK 2 BACK), 3rd game back he puts up 2/22/3, 4th game back he puts in another 21/12/3, 5th game back he puts in 9/16/1. Those were four damn good games in a row, but yet you want to sit up here and nitpick off of one game. That's very petty of you. For fun I'll toss in Howard's stats who brings it every night. G1) 11/15/2 (He brought it big time) G2) 21/7/3 3). G3) 16/24/3 G4) 20/24/4 G5) 19/15/3 I stay at 5 games even though Howard's last two games netted 28 pts a piece in basically a centerless league so those 28 points shouldn't really impress you right? The stats are comparable between the two, yet Bynum is option 2 and Dwight is option 1.

  4. LA should take some notes from Boston. They started Rondo, let him learn on the fly even with no jump shot and he has become one of the best. The league respects Fish but the coach may have to learn when to sit the decorated warrior if he's hurting the team which he is imo. The team can then see if Morris has what it takes to be in this league, he's in a good situation being surrounded by vets.

  5. FO has to make a decision. You can't contend and get younger at the same time. If the team has to take a couple steps back to get the young guys some experience then so be it. Kobe can get mad all he wants but he didn't start winning rings until he had some experience through trial by fire. Instead this FO wants to try to find a big name to bring in, it's not really going to happen so they need to look for small moves, something like 6'2" and 185 pounds.

  6. I'm glad you compared Bynum to Phillip Seymour Hoffman because Phillip Seymour Hoffman is a winner. He's one plenty of awards and is well-respected by his peers and a lot of fans who can appreciate a great movie with great acting. If you want to see high action, lots of explosions then go watch a Michael Bay film if you're bored. Yeah they may be fun to watch but in the end you have that empty feeling, but at least you get to see the charismatic Shia LeBouf in three of them. If you want to see some great running then look up Usain Bolt on youtube. Is Kobe's charisma not enough for you? You don't like the charisma of Pau who you vigorously defend from being soft? Why pick on Bynum? Oh that's right because he had two knee injuries.

  7. You can be stupid and meaningless? All I can say to that is admittance is the first step to recovery. Please recover swiftly.

  8. Kobe chooses to go one on five at times, he has two good bigs to play along with, yet decides to launch almost 30 shots a game. The problem is that Kobe need a perimeter guy to keep the ball out his hands to get the team involved, very much like Pippen did with Jordan and Phil even admitted to that.

  9. Pau ate up D12 in the playoffs? That's pure comedy. Purely that's your Kevin Hart routine. Pau had plenty of help, the Lakers made Howard play in an enclosed space, it was good team defense. Pau has been soft for years, how did he look in that first Boston finals? Oh, he must have been getting old then too. He plays summer ball instead of hitting the weights, he can't get good position in the post. That's a strength problem.

  10. You keep bringing up boring. Yet look at the team we have it's an older team. Pretty much all our perimeter players are over 30, it's the perimeter guys who do most of the running in this league, take a look at other teams. Yet you just want to keep jumping on Bynum. He may not run like a gazelle like Howard but he is an effective player. This team needs atheticism at the backup 2, athleticism at the 3 and athleticism at the 1 spot and we can hope to compete.

Gem,

Great post. As alway well thought out and using facts. It is funny how Drew keeps getting better and better yet some keep acting like he is getting worse and worse. I swear, if I didn't know better, the guy was averaging 6pts and 5boards a game.

I also love how some on LTB say, "Hey, lets trade Drew while his value is high." Duh, why is his value high and getting higher? So we want to trade a young guy, a dominant center who is doing what we want, getting better and better?

Using that unique logic, we should have traded Kobe years ago when he was around 22 or 23 because his ability and value was expanding. Same for Magic and Worthy and West and Baylor.

I thought you wanted to trade a guy when you can see he is not improving, not when he keeps getting better, lol. Aren't those the kinds of players you would want to keep?

Wow, some amazing pieces of "logic" you read on sports sites.

Repped for the terrific post Gem.


BaadMaster
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SPQR states: "Using that unique logic, we should have traded Kobe years ago when he was around 22 or 23 because his ability and value was expanding. Same for Magic and Worthy and West and Baylor...."

You are forgetting one thing. Those players did not have a history of injury so pervasive that they never completed one season in their career. No one in their right mind would suggest swapping Drew for Dwight if Andrew had two good knees.

No one can see into the future. But, if you use the past as a guide to the future (would you expect Greg Oden to have a great future?), then one might be skittish with respect to building a franchise around a fragile, albeit great, center.

This, of course, is all opinion. But even if Drew were arguably much better than D12, I would not take a chance when you are dealing with the next centerpiece of the Lakers.

Howard played in just about every game in his career. Bynum played in less than half. 'From a risk management perspective, it is a no brainer. Get the guy who will play for the next seven years.


gemfow
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Ksv2: No need to apologize, things get lost in translation over the internet all the time. Now you feel me on that point I was making. I just don't feel it's okay to use something against one center and not use it against the other. SPQR: The logic of trading someone because of having two pretty bad injuries is ridiculous. The one thing that people seem to always ignore is that Drew's second knee injury never really was given time to heal, so after he missed the remainder of that season, he came in the next season and ultimately reinjured it trying to help LA win the title and he did help them win it. I see people always saying og Pau helped us win two rings, so let's forgive his softness, let's forgive his lack of D. People are less forgiving of Drew who essentially risked his NBA career by playing on a torn meniscus so LA could win, he played until he couldn't play anymore, but what's his reward? Trade him since he is playing well. Baad: Once again your fact checker has apparently failed you. Drew has completed two seasons in his career. You do know that Kobe never completed a full season until his seventh season right? You should take a look at Nene, this guy had 4 injury riddled seasons in a row and now he's been healthy. You never know how injuries may go, Drew had two knee injuries, one he came back to early on as I've said plenty times before but you guys don't seem to really want to hear that. If he gets injured again then maybe I can put some season salt and pepper on my deep fried....


ksoebaenla
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Guys, I love bynum too, and what he is doing is awesome...I have actually lost hope in this lakers team as currently constructed but look forward to watching to see what bynum is going to do...but....

Bynum has done this for 6 games, Howard has done it for 6 years, there is a huge difference there...and I'm not talking about the obvious difference in just sample size.

Where the huge difference plays a factor is that bynum has yet to have another team just game plan to stop him, and or have to go through double teams every other time he touches it...that is what amazes me about kobe, he has done it for so long against the other teams best defenders and usually with double and triple teams.

Now, I'm not saying bynum can't do it...however I think it is far, far too early to compare the two...Howard is leaps and bounds above drew at this moment...again, the potential is there, however i do not want the lakers future resting on potential, and I actually managed to write this whole post without bringing up bynums injury history...which is another draw back to bynum being our future.


BaadMaster
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gemfow wrote:
You hjave no idea if Howard will be healthy unless you and 113 are doing online role play and acting like Doc Brown and Marty McFly.

Why not enjoy the ride Baad? Why not enjoy seeing a young player getting better on the Lakers? Instead people are always trying to get a superstar from another team. We drafted Bynum just like we drafted Kobe, let's enjoy seeing him grow from a boy into a man. Instead people want to shoot him down and jettison him. I say get rid of guys who are lazy, useless or who don't want to be here. Bynum is none of that.

This is ultimatetly about intelligent guestimates base on past performance. If Vegas were to give odds, there is no doubt that D12 would be the favorite to play uninjured vs. Bynum. That does not mean a bet on Bynum is a sure lolser. There is nothing sure in sports.

But logic would dictate that Drew will not be the iron man Dwight will be. Again, this is not written in stone. Drew can wind up playing ten years without missing a game and Dwight could suffer a career enbding injury. The question is, as in all aports betting, what event is most likely? It is not about absolutes;it is about odds.

Given the history of both big men, I would trade Andrew for Dwight in a N.Y. minuite -- even without the charisma discepancy.

That is my opinion. I could be wrong. But based on past history, I am probably right.


SPQR
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Gem,

All your points are well told. I too wondered how Baad can say nobody can see into the future, yet then he looks into Drews. And if we go by recent injury and percentages, then I would ask Baad, since Kobe was a walking injury last year and has already suffered a substantial injury just a few games into this season and has 16 hard seasons on a 33 year old body, what does his crystal ball say about Kobes future?

Shouldn't we then try trade him while he has value before he breaks down?

It is instructive to note that those with crystal balls who want to trade Drew before he breaks down are those whose very same crystal balls were telling us so often in the last years that Drew was soft, weak and sucked; would never be any good.

Doesn't give one much faith in the prescience of their ability to seer the future, does it?


BaadMaster
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SPQR wrote:
Gem,

All your points are well told. I too wondered how Baad can say nobody can see into the future, yet then he looks into Drews. And if we go by recent injury and percentages, then I would ask Baad, since Kobe was a walking injury last year and has already suffered a substantial injury just a few games into this season and has 16 hard seasons on a 33 year old body, what does his crystal ball say about Kobes future? ?

Fpr a smart man, SPQR, you sure can be dumb. Kobe, with all his injuries, plays just about every game. One cannot judge pain thresholds and such. All one can do, when trying to do a statistical anallysis of probabilities, is use the data -- games actually played divided by the total number of games - to predict the future. Of course, it is often wrong; prediciting the future is fraught with inaccuracies.

But Kobe has played just about every game for 16 years. Odds are he will play most of the games he is signed for. Bynum has yet to play a complete season (other than his rookie year when he did not play much) . Dwight has missed like two games in his whole career. Any betting man (or woman) woould concede that Dwight is more likely to play most games in his career, while Drew will likely have another major injury. That is not Criswell Predicts; it is just statisitics.

Again, this could be wrong. We are talking LIKELY SCENARIOS --not absolutes. There are no absolutes in sports. Greg Oden could wind up bveing the next Bill Rusell. Unlikely but possible. Luke Walton could wind up Playoff MVP for all we know.

When dealing with predicitions and statistics, we are dealing in the land of the PROBABLE, not the land of ABSOLUTES.

In the land of the probable, it is more likely (emphasis on the word LIKELY) that Dwight Howard will play the next seven years more injury free than Andrew Bynum -- or Greg Oden for that matter. That is a statistical prediction, not an absolute, Marty McFly prediction. And anyone who knows statistics would not dare contradict me in that conclusion.


SPQR
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Baad, You know what, this is like the third or fourth time you have just flat out called me dumb because you don't like the points I make. If you had done that to other members, you would have been banned long ago. I ought to ban your *ss right now but you get one last break. Now Im gonna tell you something flat out and clear, ok? You do that again, to me or anyone, and I mean ANYONE, I will personally boot your butt off here. That is an iron clad promise from me to you. You can't talk to me without descending into that crap, then put me on ignore or don't read my posts. You got that straight? You better because your leash has just been pulled for good. Got it? If I wanted to ban you, I would have before. But I don't. You have been on here a long time and I know you enjoy it. But this is the end. Now as to your "points". If Kobe had Drews injuries, those that required extensive surgery and rehab, literal serious operations, he would not have played any more than Drew did. Kobes injuries did not effect him in the manner Drews did. Kobe has a high pain threshold, but even he can't pull out some miracle and function well if his body sustains an injury that doesn't let it work right. Your precious stats say Drew will get hurt. But you just ignore the fact that at Kobes age and recent history, the odds say he will continue to get hurt. And age demands he continue to decline. But you only want to trade Drew but not Kobe, even though your own stats, that you want to use, say we should. You know what, I say the stats would....


113
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Baad, I wouldn't go around calling a mod or anyone on the forum dumb. You've been here longer than I lot of people so I would think you'd know better.

I happen to agree with your point about what is more probable. I do agree that I think Bynum is more probable to get seriously injured again than D12. I think that's just empirically true. Garry Vitti said last year that Bynum's knees are built so that he is more likely to sustain serious injury to them throughout his career. Some people are just unlucky in that respect.

And anyone who watches Bynum closely can see that he looks kind of awkward running and jumping. I cringe whenever I see him land because he lands awkwardly.

I think those of us advocating for the D12 trade all see this, but again, I wouldn't go around calling those that disagree with us dumb because at the end of the day if no trade happens I will be more than happy to keep Bynum on our squad. I think he's a valuable piece (I just happen to think D12 is more valuable).


BaadMaster
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SPQR states, "Your precious stats say Drew will get hurt. But you just ignore the fact that at Kobes age and recent history, the odds say he will continue to get hurt. And age demands he continue to decline. But you only want to trade Drew but not Kobe, even though your own stats, that you want to use, say we should." Forgetting the dumb comment (I will refrain from that from now on), please do not misquote me. I said Drew will LIKELY get hurt, not that he will,. In fact I state there is a chance he will never be injured again. I was simply talking statistical probability. Based on past performances over a long period of time (7 years), the odds are much greater that Byum will get a serious injury than Howard. That seems pretty straightforward. As to Kobe, he is 33 years old; we are not talking about the future here. He has put in his time. Anything he contributes is a bonus. He has also played at a much higher level (and still does) than Bynum. To trade the franchise is risky -- both from a basketball angle and from a business point of view. (He is likely the biggest draw in Southern California sports and possibly even the world.) Thus comparing Kobe to Drew is apples to donuts. It does not compute. Two different situations; two different concerns. If you did trade Kobe, it would not be for health reasons. He would play with a hook for a hand if he had to. It would be because management decided a newer, younger face of the franchise was in order. And that is a whole other discussion. As to Drew vs.Dwight, as I stated ad nauseum, it is only about health where there is a reasonable imperative....


Abaloz
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113 wrote:
Baad, I wouldn't go around calling a mod or anyone on the forum dumb. You've been here longer than I lot of people so I would think you'd know better.

I happen to agree with your point about what is more probable. I do agree that I think Bynum is more probable to get seriously injured again than D12. I think that's just empirically true. Garry Vitti said last year that Bynum's knees are built so that he is more likely to sustain serious injury to them throughout his career. Some people are just unlucky in that respect.

And anyone who watches Bynum closely can see that he looks kind of awkward running and jumping. I cringe whenever I see him land because he lands awkwardly.

I think those of us advocating for the D12 trade all see this, but again, I wouldn't go around calling those that disagree with us dumb because at the end of the day if no trade happens I will be more than happy to keep Bynum on our squad. I think he's a valuable piece (I just happen to think D12 is more valuable).

THis


BaadMaster
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First,let's get some facts straight, point by point. SPQR states 1. "As for Drew, you were one of those who wailed on here for years that he sucked, that he lacked this and that, that he was a wasted draft pick. Now of course, the crow is just dripping so copiously down your face. And it sucks, doesn't it? How smart you have been? But it aint the first time, right Baad, nor the last for sure...". I was consistently calling for Phil to start Drew from day one. I was fifth row when he scored 42 points against the Clippers (In January, BTW.) Drew is a beast and I always wanted him fed and surely wanted him as a starter. I always hated Phil for his prejudice against rookies. You can, as Yogi Berra saiid, look it up. 2. "The same smart guy who for years has yelled how Stern was going to fix that years playoffs to get Lebron his title. How many years has this fix been in now? Five, six, seven, eight? And how many years has Stern gotten him that title." I truly believe that Stern does not want this to be an L.A.-O-Centric League. I believe that Game Two of the first Boston series, with its 20-2 (or something like that) free throw disparity was Stern at his Commissar best. Like any conspiracy theory, it is just that, a theory. I believe it, you don't. And even if Stern wines and dines the refs to let LeBron win one, he cannot prevent LeBron from bricking everything in the fourth quarter. You still have to get the ball in the basket. 3. "And with all the stuff you put out here, wrong, so many times, post after post, year after year, you call someone else dumb? Wow." Well we can....


mambamonk87
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Baad, I feel like you're speaking a bit prematurely. This .500 start seems much worse than it is, especially if you're comparing it to the 09 and 10 championship seasons in which we hit the ground running. But that was because we had the same system in place for years, the same coach, and had finally integrated all of Pau's strengths into our team dynamic. I just think it's unrealistic to place those expectations on a revamped roster that's trying to figure itself out with a new system and coach. Give it some time.

And I've been on this forum with you for a long time and so that personal attack at SPQR comes as a surprise to me. That's uncalled for here. Let's all try to keep it civil - the uncertainty of this era of Lakers basketball's got us all on edge but that only means us Lakers fans need to stick together and support this team the best way we know how.


BaadMaster
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mambamonk87 wrote:
Baad, I feel like you're speaking a bit prematurely. This .500 start seems much worse than it is, especially if you're comparing it to the 09 and 10 championship seasons in which we hit the ground running. But that was because we had the same system in place for years, the same coach, and had finally integrated all of Pau's strengths into our team dynamic. I just think it's unrealistic to place those expectations on a revamped roster that's trying to figure itself out with a new system and coach. Give it some time.

And I've been on this forum with you for a long time and so that personal attack at SPQR comes as a surprise to me. That's uncalled for here. Let's all try to keep it civil - the uncertainty of this era of Lakers basketball's got us all on edge but that only means us Lakers fans need to stick together and support this team the best way we know how.

Good points. We are all Lakers fans.

But I think we are all a little apprehensive for a few reasons:

1. Jim Buss is kind of a shadowy figure. He skulks around, very low profile, and we do not know what he is really up to. Is he a chip off the old block? Is he a tightwad in the mold of the old Donald Sterling? DOES HE EVEN LIKE BASKETBALL? We simply don't know -- and uncertainty is unsettling.

We cut Dr. Buss a lot of slack because we knew he would pay whatever it took to keep the Lakers as the premiere franchise in the NBA. We have no idea as to what Jimbo is up to. When he sent LO to Dallas FOR NOTHING we started scratching our collective heads. And we are still scratching.

2. For the first time in almost fifteen years, we see the beginning of the end for the Great One, Kobe Bean Bryant. And we do not see a plan for the transition.

3. As good as Drew has been, we are all worried that his next slip on the hardwood can be fatal to the fraanchise. Thus the D12 talk. I sure wish he had good knees.

4. We collectively feel, consciously or unconsciously, that we are a .500 team. With DFish, as great as he has been, as the starting point guard, we can never win anything, Period. And Blake, although better this year, is not that answer as a starter. Bench yes, Starter no.

5. No, the sky is not falling., But getting back to point one -- who is this Jim Buss guy? He is as mysterious as Dr. Moriarity in the Sherlock Holmes films.

And although Mike Brown is a pleasant surprise, there is too much uncertainty surrounding this team for us to be totally optimistic. Thus the tension.


viktorkain
Big-Time Laker Fan
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votes: 9
Can you Imagine what would happen if they would just play Darius Morris? I could Not agree with you More. I disagree with this I think Bynum has finally rounded the bend on his injury woes and will string good games together to prove a point.but just for the well being of laker fans and our peace of mind I can see him being traded for the more durable and defense orientated D12. Agreed 1000% 5.See answer 4. I also agree with the Charisma issue it would be hard to peg him as the face of a franchise because of this issue. Bynum does not fit the NBA stereotype at all. He likes to read and build engines..... he seems more like a nerd than a jock but that could be his selling point. LMFAO. See answer 4. Man .... I really Like Pau... his skill set is amazing but I agree with this as well. I would trade him but ONLY if the compensation was a youthful athletic skilled SF or PF. I really think it would be interesting if the coach would just do this for one game.... Start PG, Blake SG, Bryant SF, Barnes PF, Gasol C, Murphy Now I am sure you are asking yourself why int he hell he would start Murphy over Bynum but trust me there is a reason... I would play this team for the first 4 or six minutes in a half court offensive set letting Troy and Blake settle around the perimeter while Pau occupies the Paint and runs high pick and rolls with Kobe... I would also have Kobe and Pau post up Kobe operating from the high right block and pau from the low left block.... they both do better in those positions on the court. Matt Barnes would be used for energy and a nasty defensive pressure. I would use him like....


SPQR
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As for Kobe. These are the facts: If you want to trade someone before his value declines, then its Kobe. Age, just age alone predicates a much better future for Drew than Kobe. Yet you would want to trade the second best center in the league, and rising with a bullet, for current value, but not a player who is doomed by age to only deteriorate? Who has no other option? That that future is written in stone for him?

Yet you would trade the 24 years old who may or may not get hurt, but not the 33 year old who is guaranteed to decline, no ifs ands or buts about it?

And remember, this whole subject was brought about by your statistical probability of decline. But I guess it only applies to Drew, and how maybe he will get hurt again, not Kobe and how we KNOW he will continue to decline.

Fine. Have it your way. Glad you aint the GM.

Quote:

I was consistently calling for Phil to start Drew from day one. I was fifth row when he scored 42 points against the Clippers (In January, BTW.) Drew is a beast and I always wanted him fed and surely wanted him as a starter. I always hated Phil for his prejudice against rookies. You can, as Yogi Berra saiid, look it up.

But you changed, didn't? You gave up on Drew. Started saying he was no good. That we needed to trade him. Unlike me and others, who had patience with him, his injuries, his inexperience, you didn't. You were wrong. And now you're stuck there in your wrong position.

Quote:

I truly believe that Stern does not want this to be an L.A.-O-Centric League. I believe that Game Two of the first Boston series, with its 20-2 (or something like that) free throw disparity was Stern at his Commissar best. Like any conspiracy theory, it is just that, a theory. I believe it, you don't. And even if Stern wines and dines the refs to let LeBron win one, he cannot prevent LeBron from bricking everything in the fourth quarter. You still have to get the ball in the basket.

Oh please. Your last comment just a few weeks ago about LA was, "We better have a good team this year, because Stern wants Lebron to win the title." Like you said the year before, and the year before. That says it all. It is implicit in that message he fixing it for Lebron. Otherwise why say it at all?

You talk about putting the ball in the basket. But what about calls? On that very post I asked you why so many game changing calls in crucial moments over the years have gone against Lebron and his Cavs late in playoff games. Of course you didn't answer that question. Because the answer is obvious and so are its implications to your fantasy. It flat out kills it. How many years now? Eight? Some conspiracy. If Stern conspired like that to kill you, you would live forever. Once again, wrong.

You say you believe in this conspiracy. I know someone who works with Stern, who sits in on the star Chambers where Stern picks the winner every year. Well check this out, he told me Stern wants Kobe to tie Jordan this year. Thats the scoop Bass about this years conspiracy. Now you know the truth. So I would say to Miami fans, "You better be really good, cuz Stern wants Kobe to win it."

Quote:

Well we can all be wrong. In fact, we were ALL wrong about Dallas. You wrote a post (paraphrasing) that Dallas would lose because they lacked "the heart of a Champion." I felt the same way. We were both wrong. Because of the nature of sports, we will all be wrong as much as we are right. It is no crime to be wrong. And each prediction or opinion is independent of anyone that preceded it. ("Lakers reporter says D12 to Nets On Tuesday!")

Baad, oh absolutely. We all can be wrong. I have been wrong plenty. I also thought Sasha could be a poor mans Peja. Was wrong there too. But you see Baad, there are different gradients of opinions and wrong. I also thought the Steelers should have kept some other wide reciever over eventual hall of famer Hines Ward many years ago. That other guy ended up so good I can't even remember his name. I could go on and on, but the point is clear.

When I say we will beat Dallas, thats one thing. Or if someone says New Orleans will beat Green Bay. Now those opinions may be right or wrong. Time tells. Or some people may even read them and think them dumb. I understand that too.

I don't have a problem with anyone being wrong.

But then you have these what one would loosely term "ideas" for want of a better word, that really are completely divorced from any semblance of reality. That are as the fantastical ravings and rambling of someone with dementia.

Like that old guy last year who kept saying the word will end. You know, someone saying and believing something that all fact, reason and evidence shows to be nonsense.

There are predictions about Dallas, hopes for Sasha, other ideas that will prove to be wrong.

But I can tell you in total honestly, I have never expressed "ideas" that can best be described as detached from reality since my late teens. Because by that time, I had a pretty good understanding of reality, the world I lived in. I could differentiate fact from fantasy.

I would never spew out stuff like, Stern is fixing for this guy to win the series. Nor would I delve into a fantasy such as say, watching a seriel cheater who does it for years on end, gets caught by his wife, then bloviate and pontificate in some smug, silly, humiliating manner about how "Its obvious, the cheaters wife (Vanessa Bryant) is at fault here."

You know like you did. When you made a total *ss out of yourself. The time I challenged you to that bet on the terms of the divorce, that Kobe would not challenge the reasons for the divorce. The time I offered to bet you one hundred dollars against your fantasy world opinion and you backed down in front of entire LTB. You remember that, right?

So yes, Baad, everyone can be wrong. We all are. I have been wrong many times and will be again. But only a few surge way past wrong, into the thin rarified atmosphere of fantasy and childish fiction, then take on that last huge leap and believe in that fantasy.

And you see, that kind of "thinking" bespeakes very clearly of that "thinker." Not just that he can be wrong, but that he goes way beyond wrong into something else altogether.

Being wrong is one thing. Having what some would consider dumb ideas another. Espousing pure fantasy as fact is on a different level. As I said, I stopped doing it as a teenager. But we are all different.

Anyway, Baad, now that we both got those thoughts out of our respective ways, we can sit back and see exactly what happens with Drew. And then that will be the end of that.


lakerfrommass
LNS HOF Bronze
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BaadMaster wrote:
1. Kobe has yet to play with a top tier -- or even semi top tier -- point guard. The guy has never had a Paxson or a Kerr to open things up for him.

LMFAO, are you kidding???

I hope you're not implying that either Kerr or Paxson were even remotely "semi top tier point guards".....

FYI there baadmaster, Derek Fisher, yes, that Derek Fisher has better career scoring numbers than either Paxson or Kerr. Derek Fisher has better PLAYOFF scoring averages than either Paxson or Kerr, and while Kerr shot a better 3pt% than Fisher in regular season, Fisher has the edge in career playoff 3pt%. Fisher also has a better career and career playoff 3pt% than Paxson.

You may argue that Kerr has hit one huge shot in his career in the finals at Utah. Fisher drilled two in 5 mins at Orlando.

Paxson, made some shots for the Bulls, but was nothing short of a below average player in this league.

You want to take a shot at Fish, surely you can come up with a better pair than Paxson and Kerr, to support that shot.

Man, you post some amusing stuff.


BaadMaster
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I will not refute these point by point because opinions are like...you know....

Burt one thing needs correction:

SPQR states,

"But then you have these what one would loosely term "ideas" for want of a better word, that really are completely divorced from any semblance of reality. That are as the fantastical ravings and rambling of someone with dementia.

Like that old guy last year who kept saying the word will end. You know, someone saying and believing something that all fact, reason and evidence shows to be nonsense.

But I can tell you in total honestly, I have never expressed "ideas" that can best be described as detached from reality since my late teens. Because by that time, I had a pretty good understanding of reality, the world I lived in. I could differentiate fact from fantasy."

First of all, I think you were somehow implying I have dementia. I thought you were the one who was appalled at name calling on these forums. But I can take it. So no big deal.

But saying my ideas --like trading Bynum for Howard or getting a younger point guard to replace DFish, starting Darius Morris or Jeannie Buss would probably do a better job than Jimbo -- cannot be described, in any universe, as detached from reality. They are deabtable ideas, but not ideas produced by a mind ravaged with dementia.

'Nuff said.


BaadMaster
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lakerfrommass wrote:
BaadMaster wrote:
1. Kobe has yet to play with a top tier -- or even semi top tier -- point guard. The guy has never had a Paxson or a Kerr to open things up for him.

LMFAO, are you kidding???

I hope you're not implying that either Kerr or Paxson were even remotely "semi top tier point guards".....

FYI there baadmaster, Derek Fisher, yes, that Derek Fisher has better career scoring numbers than either Paxson or Kerr. Derek Fisher has better PLAYOFF scoring averages than either Paxson or Kerr, and while Kerr shot a better 3pt% than Fisher in regular season, Fisher has the edge in career playoff 3pt%. Fisher also has a better career and career playoff 3pt% than Paxson.

You may argue that Kerr has hit one huge shot in his career in the finals at Utah. Fisher drilled two in 5 mins at Orlando.

Paxson, made some shots for the Bulls, but was nothing short of a below average player in this league.

You want to take a shot at Fish, surely you can come up with a better pair than Paxson and Kerr, to support that shot.

Man, you post some amusing stuff.

You might be right about Kerr and Paxson. I am only familiar with them during the playoffs.

But my point was more general, in that Kobe was never paired witha top tier point guard in his career -- other than in All-Star games. That is why I would have loved to have seen him with Chris Paul. DFish, in his prime, was clse to top tier. But most of Kobe's years were without a stellar point guard.

That was why I was angry at the LO giveaway. I would have hoped we could have used LO to get a quality PG.

Who knows? Maybe we still can!


SPQR
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Quote:

But saying my ideas --like trading Bynum for Howard or getting a younger point guard to replace DFish, starting Darius Morris or Jeannie Buss would probably do a better job than Jimbo -- cannot be described, in any universe, as detached from reality. They are deabtable ideas, but not ideas produced by a mind ravaged with dementia.

Baad,

Absolutely not. I agree. Those are legit opinions.

That Stern is fixing series or Vanessa was to blame for Kobes seriel cheating for year after year, girl after girl are ideas that one would associate with dementia.

I simply pointed that out since you decided to throw in one last dumb (even though you calling an idea dumb certainly does not legitimize that opinion, for obvious reasons) idea claim against me in that last post you wrote. Fair is fair, right, Baad? You want to throw dumb out again, I will throw out some of your ideas that border on dementia.

And of course rightfully pointing out, there is a big difference between being wrong, or even having someone else viewing an idea as dumb, to crossing the line into fantasy dementia ideas, and actually believing them. That is a bit more than just being wrong about something. And as I said, it says something about the person who does believe it.

That was my point. And once again, the reason I brought it up was simply because you couldn't resist throwing the dumb word out one more time. I think you understand that reason in all fairness.

And I think thats about all I have to say on any of this. Now we will just watch and find out what happens with Drew and trades and his statistical decline and Kobes statistical decline, to use your barometer, right?

And down the road, when the statistical data and evidence comes in, hopefully we can have a nicer conversation about that topic and its results than you decided to make this one.


KS_v2
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Weren't Paxson and Kerr the better passers and defenders though?


lakerfrommass
LNS HOF Bronze
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votes: 15

KS_v2 wrote:
Weren't Paxson and Kerr the better passers and defenders though?

When the OP states "the guy has never had a Paxson or Kerr to open things up for him", I highly doubt he is talking about defense.


BaadMaster
LNS HOF Bronze
Posts: 8508
votes: 98

lakerfrommass wrote:
KS_v2 wrote:
Weren't Paxson and Kerr the better passers and defenders though?

When the OP states "the guy has never had a Paxson or Kerr to open things up for him", I highly doubt he is talking about defense.

Eggs Ackley!

Kobe, to the best of my knowledge, has never had a three point gunner to make his life easier. Granted, with his huge salary, it is hard to get a Ray Allen. But the Kobester has not even had a Mo Williams who can spread the floor by virtue of his three point shooting. Thus Kobe, who is deadly from the elbow and free throw line, often must be our sole three point gunner. With Fish shooting 8% from the three, this problem is even worse this year.

Can you imagine Kobe with Steve Nash? Wow!


KS_v2
Die-Hard Laker Fan
Posts: 1871
votes: 20

Pippen used to create a ton of shots for Jordan.

Kobe needs a better playmaking wing player. LA needs a better floor general. Both the needs are satisfied by only a PG since the only player who satisifes the criteria at the SF position is sadly LeBron James.

And also, better passers create better chances Razz


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